UD beating FS [Archive] - PoxNora Forums

Viziroth

08-13-2008, 07:19 PM

umm get rid of all the water on the map(melt on incinerator... but he's kinda expensive and not worth it 90% of the time) ummm however they often make the water in the same turn they cast ff.

umm keep champs clumped together so that the fishies can't focus fire... problem with that is it makes AoE damage more effective.

So yeah... not much you can do expect run block and physical resist. A lot of thier spells do physical dmamage, but a lot of their champs do magical/poison so...

Atlam

08-13-2008, 08:58 PM

place a lava trap near you in anticipation for the piranhas of death?

Phyphoria

08-13-2008, 10:19 PM

-A must is 2 x Pit Dragons with max Resistances (Poison-Magic)
-Don't bother with Demon Shields - use Mindslicer Obelisk
-Use Scorch the Earth x 2 overwrites any bog traps or water and usually turns it to stone so you take no fire damage
-Nefari Dragons are great
-Don't bother with Priestess or any expensive 1 x 1 unit.
-Sac is still great to fend a Backfire.
-Cheap units and Altar of Voteav for anything else.
-I find AoE spells to be necessary to kill of a low hit point Frog that makes a retreat.
-Firebow or some surprise range weapon might help.
-Cheap Pincushions force them to play their hand.
-K'Izik is better than Grimlic due to poison Immunity and 2 x 2 base and all the spiders you get from her when she gets frenzied

Still you will be pushing your luck....

I got a UD Harbinger by the way..... ;-) wouldn't catch me using it if you knew you were running into FS.

Phyphoria

08-13-2008, 10:20 PM

Lava traps are interesting but a Monsoon will reveal it then it has 7 hits points for someone to snipe.

Konger

08-14-2008, 08:01 AM

Zoltor

08-14-2008, 08:15 AM

Look, ending up against FS= auto lose, there is no way around it, don't even bother trying to cling on to hope, so the answer is, no,no,no,no, and heeell no sigh.

Lorddannis

08-14-2008, 08:42 AM

Akumatora

08-14-2008, 08:46 AM

Depend on the map, if I have to fight face to face I always loose but if I can feint and throw one or two champs to distract them and rush their shrine with 2-3 champs I usualy win.

Zoltor

08-14-2008, 09:11 AM

With K'lzik out it really isn't an auto lose, it sure as **** aint easy but I do it all the time. She face ****s them even if they corrode her demon shield off (and I have seen alot less of that lately.) All you have to do is get in range for one turn and you can one shot most of their guys. You just have to keep pushing forward eventually you'll make it to their shrine then just ignore all the frogs and smack it.

You know what, in theory K'lzik works real good against FS, can even take on the entire FS army by her self(with a DS on), but then FS just ends up using AOE spells, and super powerful ranged skills to kill her off(like Tidal Wave).

FS has everything, so without any weaknesses, even K'lzik can't beat it.

I thought of a wierd UD bg that could crush FS, but then, like mentioned, that BG would suck against everything else.

How do you not get AOEed to death?

fri666

08-14-2008, 09:12 AM

^^ y, i sometimes win with a shrine rush (2 imps, 1-2 attacks from grimlic if lucky and summon borghas + fire blasts).

BkWiz

08-14-2008, 12:25 PM

You know what, in theory K'lzik works real good against FS, can even take on the entire FS army by her self(with a DS on), but then FS just ends up using AOE spells, and super powerful ranged skills to kill her off(like Tidal Wave).

FS has everything, so without any weaknesses, even K'lzik can't beat it.

I thought of a wierd UD bg that could crush FS, but then, like mentioned, that BG would suck against everything else.

How do you not get AOEed to death?

I wish I wasn't on my iPhone its a painti reply on it. Klzik by herself will lose against an army of frogs but in equal settings klzik is he death of most fs decks. Even if you ae her todeath you now have 3-7 irate spiders about to eat you alive. Fs rarely does well against overwhelimg odd like that.

Sepulcher8

08-14-2008, 03:48 PM

I'm fairly competent with FS, and I just lost to a UD deck because he ran champs real cheap with Altar of Votaev and Mindslicer Obelisk.

I Drowned a Grimlic, and it was back before I knew it. FS thrives on rushing these days, and getting a massive pile of Nora with which to do crazy ranged and Spell damage with while you're still setting up. If you can draw the game out, I've found that FS usually cannot win long games...2x2's like Pit Dragon and K'lzik help a lot just because Drown is such a tide-shifting spell. (no pun intended)

The guy I just played, I finally figured that the best thing to do was rush his Shrine, and I got it down to 13 before he just swarmed me to death.

So yeah, it is definitely possible to beat FS with UD.

BkWiz

08-14-2008, 04:59 PM

*Grumbles* I say FS has a weak long term game and everyone argues with me. You say it and no one argues. =p

ninkobei

08-14-2008, 05:38 PM

new UD long term game is freaking fantastic. oh dear god...can you say 7-8 turn cooldown grimlic/titan?

BkWiz

08-14-2008, 05:48 PM

new UD long term game is freaking fantastic. oh dear god...can you say 7-8 turn cooldown grimlic/titan?

...

If you read my posts regarding the new relic, I agree 100%!

Glad I'm not the only one who actually sees this...Seems like I've been bashing my head against a wall trying to get people in the UD forums to see what a fantastic rune that relic is. -_-

Viziroth

08-14-2008, 06:10 PM

Nefari Torch?

These things are beastly, just back a couple masons. They also give a nora refund on spells. At least they used to I dunno if they still do.

But the swamp doesn't have a lot of shrine repair so it limits the amout of spells they can cast in a game.

BkWiz

08-14-2008, 06:33 PM

Altar of Voarev or however it's spelled.

Lorddannis

08-14-2008, 07:00 PM

You know what, in theory K'lzik works real good against FS, can even take on the entire FS army by her self(with a DS on), but then FS just ends up using AOE spells, and super powerful ranged skills to kill her off(like Tidal Wave).

FS has everything, so without any weaknesses, even K'lzik can't beat it.

I thought of a wierd UD bg that could crush FS, but then, like mentioned, that BG would suck against everything else.

How do you not get AOEed to death?

You basically have to use one of your champs as bate, run a DE monk/pit dragon up where you know he is going to die but he is such a threat they have to drop their spells on him. Once the spells are on cool down go for the kill. Doesn't always work but a hell of a lot more often then hitting surrender as soon as the game starts.

Sepulcher8

08-14-2008, 10:04 PM

new UD long term game is freaking fantastic. oh dear god...can you say 7-8 turn cooldown grimlic/titan?

OK, I did not even get the big deal about Altar until you posted this, because I misread it! XD

I thought that it just reduced CD by 2 on everything, and was confused. THEN I read it over again and it's every time a champ dies! Wow.

Well that makes this guy that I played's deck make a LOT more sense.

He ran two Scorched Dwarf, and two Nefari Siphons. Think about that little combo for a sec...yeah. I was wondering how he got his Deep Elf Priestess to like, 4 Cooldown. -.- because that's how fast they were coming back. As much as that game pains me, I really really like the Altar now. lol

Sorry, I'm about two weeks behind on this. :P

BrokeHeart

08-14-2008, 10:22 PM

OK, I did not even get the big deal about Altar until you posted this, because I misread it! XD

I thought that it just reduced CD by 2 on everything, and was confused. THEN I read it over again and it's every time a champ dies! Wow.

Well that makes this guy that I played's deck make a LOT more sense.

He ran two Scorched Dwarf, and two Nefari Siphons. Think about that little combo for a sec...yeah. I was wondering how he got his Deep Elf Priestess to like, 4 Cooldown. -.- because that's how fast they were coming back. As much as that game pains me, I really really like the Altar now. lol

Sorry, I'm about two weeks behind on this. :P

I had to re-read and think about it a while myself.......DAAYUUUUUUM! I gotta try that myself sometime.

Badgerale

08-15-2008, 06:53 AM

*Grumbles* I say FS has a weak long term game and everyone argues with me. You say it and no one argues. =p

Look right, FS has a great long game (against UD) because insta cheese cools down before the champs it kills do.

Also cheapo raptors and leviathans can be played several times in a long game.

Zoltor

08-15-2008, 08:09 AM

You basically have to use one of your champs as bate, run a DE monk/pit dragon up where you know he is going to die but he is such a threat they have to drop their spells on him. Once the spells are on cool down go for the kill. Doesn't always work but a hell of a lot more often then hitting surrender as soon as the game starts.

Hm, ok I'll have to try that out, but it probally will only work against low skilled players(since they can just Leap to get around the decoy if need be to cast the AOE stuff).

PS. To above: Yea FS is completely invicable long game(well I beat that with a JFQ Majestic 2 build, but even then it took over two hours to win with ST, but UD, hell no). The only real chance is to beat them fast, in a faction not made for rushing.

BkWiz

08-15-2008, 09:41 AM

Look right, FS has a great long game (against UD) because insta cheese cools down before the champs it kills do.

Also cheapo raptors and leviathans can be played several times in a long game.

You do realize that this specifically helps the long term game?

And considering the costs and cooldown of drown and the fact that most semis are at least 14-16 turns to cooldown when they die, you can easily win via attrition with this one rune?

Semis don't cooldown faster than demons with this altar out.

Zoltor

08-15-2008, 09:58 AM

You do realize that this specifically helps the long term game?

And considering the costs and cooldown of drown and the fact that most semis are at least 14-16 turns to cooldown when they die, you can easily win via attrition with this one rune?

Semis don't cooldown faster than demons with this altar out.

Hm good point, just one problem, where do we get all the nora from, It's not like we are allowed to have 5 Sacrifices in a BG afterall.

BkWiz

08-15-2008, 10:12 AM

Hm good point, just one problem, where do we get all the nora from, It's not like we are allowed to have 5 Sacrifices in a BG afterall.

The altar itself is 25 nora. That's a steal considering your likely to have it reduce the cooldown on a champ by at least 6-8 by just using one altar and losing/sacrificing champions as normal.

If your a good enough UD player, 2 sacrifices should be all you need to keep ahead of the game. Sacrifice is only on a 5 turn cooldown currently. If your sacrificing one champ a turn in the worst case scenario, that's only 3 champs your losing w/o sacrificing. The nora gained from sacrifice easily pays for at least 1-2 of those champs making you = to the opposing player in terms of nora.

If you kill at least 2-3 champions for your 5, your already ahead of him in terms of nora spent/used. Not to mention ahead in cooldowns already.

Badgerale

08-16-2008, 04:48 AM

You do realize that this specifically helps the long term game?

And considering the costs and cooldown of drown and the fact that most semis are at least 14-16 turns to cooldown when they die, you can easily win via attrition with this one rune?

Semis don't cooldown faster than demons with this altar out.

Well, if you run an alter it will certainly help your long game vs everyone. It will however hurt your short game, especially against FS, as it means removing a non-champ like mindslicer or demonshield or an AoE.

I'm on the fence as to wether it's worth it.

CPKZ

08-16-2008, 07:53 AM

FS is by far our hardest matchup, everything about their faction is a counter to our main strategies. The only way to stand a chance against them is to build your entire deck around beating FS, which of course will semi-gimp you against everyone else.

thats discluding FW right, since beating FW is impossible.

Or maybe I'm a weird UD player since I don't find FS that hard...

Konger

08-16-2008, 08:07 AM

Well, if you run an alter it will certainly help your long game vs everyone. It will however hurt your short game, especially against FS, as it means removing a non-champ like mindslicer or demonshield or an AoE.

I'm on the fence as to wether it's worth it.

That's kind of where I'm at too. I have no doubts that an altar placed at the opportune time, can win you a match. But in order for that to happen, you have to preemptively get the altar out as soon as you lose your first champ, that's when nora is most precious. In most matches you won't even need the shorter cooldowns since UD is fairly strong in the early game.

I don't know, I've been glancing over my own match history, it seems like 2 out of every 3 matches I win within the first 12 turns. But those losses are almost all from matches that went into the 20 turn range when my champs were all on cooldowns.

I guess the rune is kind of a gamble, you have to decide within that first few turns whether it's more worthwhile to drop an AoE and take the early game advantage as you move in, or drop the Altar and ensure some added longevity in the late game.

I dropped my third damage AoE, Maddening Echoes (mostly there for mirror matches and advantageous times,) for the Altar in my main deck. I'll play around with it for a little while and see how I feel about it.