*Hypothetical* - Fragments/Player Reward Re-Design (Not just for campaign players)

[PoxVega]

Note: The reason this post is hypothetical is because it is a discussion. This post does not mean we are implementing anything stated below in any upcoming expansions, midterms or patches. It is for the purpose of discussion only.



Current System:
As many of you know, we have a system in place that allows players to earn fragments through playing campaigns, and these fragments can be used to craft items in the player rewards area. Rewards can be crafted using: commons, uncommons, rares and exotics (exotics being the ultimate shinny).

Note - All together we have 32 different fragments a player can collect.

__

New System:
What if there was only one type of fragment to collect? When a player plays through a campaign, they would receive a static amount of fragments every time (of course the amount could be dependent on different variables - difficulty is an example).

The player rewards would only cost that one type of fragment. Meaning, instead of a 100 rune pack requiring 4-exotics and 4-commons, they would only cost a set amount... 2000 fragments. (These numbers are just examples.)

Note - When I mean one type of fragment, I mean there isn't such a thing as common, uncommon, etc. A fragment will mean... a fragment. :)

Pros:
- It is cleaner and is less complicated system. (It is cumbersome to figure out all the different fragments I need to craft and item.)
- Players won't have to worry about playing a specific campaign for a specific fragment, for all campaigns will drop the same things.
- Players will feel their time is well spent. (There is nothing like playing 300 campaigns and not getting an exotic.)
- No more 2000 Uncommon fragments sitting around.

__

I do want to note about the potential loss of the "shinny." If you don't know what the "shinny" is, it is the "OMG" factor that happens when a player randomly get something awesome after completing a mission. (Exotics played the "shinny.")

There are ways to bring in the "shinny" moment. For example, with the guaranteed drop of the fragments, we could randomly drop a... rune, 10-pack, etc. I think there is room to recreate the "shinny."

Also, I think a points system could be implemented into... ranked games, too. I think it would be awesome if everyone had the ability to earn fragments and spend them on: taunts, packs, runes, or whatever else we throw in there.

__

Replacing the current fragments:
Hardest part about this system is that people already have many different types of fragments. I personally think it would be easy to automatically update everyone's fragments and convert them into the new system. We would just have to figure out what those conversion numbers would be.


-- end.



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POXVEGA!!!

[Sammich]

Make the shiney a Namechange token, and I'd rock out all night long ^.^

Oh, and find some way to allow names to be visible, please. Can we just put the same filter in place as restricts new user account names? Pretty please?

[Duality]

I think you have awesome idea's ^_^ But then, you already know what I think since I wont shut up :p I also think that now I don't have to post a long winded rant tonight! Yay!

Anyway, this would be a MUCH better system than the currently cumbersome and counter-intuitive one that already exists and would make most people happy :)

Thanks Vega.

[Xiape]

I'm a fan of less luck in the whole fragment dropping process. Being able to see how many more campaigns you have to play gives much more immediate gratification, and further wish to continue campaigns. So I would support this idea.

[Scizorius]

I think this sounds like a great idea. Just be sure the purchased campaigns give a significantly larger amount of fragments so that people still play them.

[Burnova]

I think the concept of points for fragments, but I'd like to make a few suggestions that will allow for the shinny (never knew of this turn, but I guess it is better than 'positive reinforcment with variable ratio scheduling') as well as make campaigns more fun.

The shinny system that would best fit into the campaigns wouldn't be something post-campaign, but rather IN the campaign. Diablo games have randomized drop rates from killing enemies, and while their system involves huge amounts of items and levels and equations, one in place for killing champs in campaigns could be easier.

Various systems could be put in place: You could start with a certain amount of frag-point and possibly lose 1 for each champ you lose to an enemy. Killing enemy champions could result in them dropping a frag. Instead of just showing a nora ball, a floating fragment could be in place. Randomly hidden around maps could be stealthed moga pups with 2x multipliers for fragment drops. Doing this type of system will keep the shinny concept in place while still assuring players that their efforts aren't going to be in vain.

[bob37898]

Awesome idea! :D

[CPKZ]

I like how the system is now over the suggestion here. I could see maybe breaking it down from 32 to 8 (Protectorate: common, uncommon, rare, exo, and wrath of the same 4).

I like the luck factor, it makes playing campaigns like opening packs to me, getting that "ooo SHINY* feeling."
*note: proper spelling is Shiny, not shinny.

I like that my money and my hard work translate into fragments. Sure, you could make paid campaigns and harder difficulties drop more...but they'd have to drop a LOT more. I'm talking like if beginners trials drop 4, then legendary NS needs to drop like 1k at least.

And still, the only reason I bought the campaigns is so I could have a higher chance of winning certain fragments. I would not have purchased them if I knew guy who hasn't paid any money can get the same rewards as I have.

I feel it would cheapen the system, make it even less exciting than it already is.

[PoxVega]

I think the concept of points for fragments, but I'd like to make a few suggestions that will allow for the shinny (never knew of this turn, but I guess it is better than 'positive reinforcment with variable ratio scheduling') as well as make campaigns more fun.

The shinny system that would best fit into the campaigns wouldn't be something post-campaign, but rather IN the campaign. Diablo games have randomized drop rates from killing enemies, and while their system involves huge amounts of items and levels and equations, one in place for killing champs in campaigns could be easier.

Various systems could be put in place: You could start with a certain amount of frag-point and possibly lose 1 for each champ you lose to an enemy. Killing enemy champions could result in them dropping a frag. Instead of just showing a nora ball, a floating fragment could be in place. Randomly hidden around maps could be stealthed moga pups with 2x multipliers for fragment drops. Doing this type of system will keep the shinny concept in place while still assuring players that their efforts aren't going to be in vain.


I like all of these ideas, well said.

Note - I kind of made up the "shinny" thing, but I have to agree it is better than saying 'positive reinforcment with variable ratio scheduling'. But then again, makes you sound super smart. :)

[nebron]

OMG!! that would be amazing! you have my support %100 percent on this one guys. I have been wanting a system like this, but i never thought it would be considered. If you implement this i will forgive the 2 hero thing. :P

[Kurisukun]

I wholeheartedly approve of this idea.

Now, I don't approve of the 10 rune pack shiny. Something smaller should be used (Rename token, maybe a reset token as well. Reset tokens are a good idea.)

I see no problems with implementing this system, so long as packs are sufficiently expensive. Because if they're too cheap, your revenue will suffer significantly.

Conversion methods are doable, and exotic frags should be high enough to please those who've worked long/hard to earn them.

Also, the frag drop methods of the current campaigns would need to be adjusted, the more difficult campaigns (Grimlics descent springs to mind) dropping more fragments. Naturally, the campaigns you pay for should be the most expensive (as well as being story heavy. Players should get what they pay for)

Keep in mind, that if conversions/drop rates/pack cost are not calculated properly, it could become a giant fiasco initially. But I believe in the long term it is a MUCH better system.

[PoxVega]

I like how the system is now over the suggestion here. I could see maybe breaking it down from 32 to 8 (Protectorate: common, uncommon, rare, exo, and wrath of the same 4).

I like the luck factor, it makes playing campaigns like opening packs to me, getting that "ooo SHINY* feeling."
*note: proper spelling is Shiny, not shinny.

I like that my money and my hard work translate into fragments. Sure, you could make paid campaigns and harder difficulties drop more...but they'd have to drop a LOT more. I'm talking like if beginners trials drop 4, then legendary NS needs to drop like 1k at least.

And still, the only reason I bought the campaigns is so I could have a higher chance of winning certain fragments. I would not have purchased them if I knew guy who hasn't paid any money can get the same rewards as I have.

I feel it would cheapen the system, make it even less exciting than it already is.



I agree with this as well. Free campaigns would not be on par with paid campaigns.

I also like the idea of potentially having the ability to instantly drop UNIQUE runes that are unique to each campaign. (if it drops).

[PoxVega]

I wholeheartedly approve of this idea.

Now, I don't approve of the 10 rune pack shiny. Something smaller should be used (Rename token, maybe a reset token as well. Reset tokens are a good idea.)


Those were just examples off the top of my head. I totally agree with you. :)

[Kurisukun]

I agree with this as well. Free campaigns would not be on par with paid campaigns.

I also like the idea of potentially having the ability to instantly drop UNIQUE runes that are unique to each campaign. (if it drops).

I really like that idea. That would make the campaigns worth purchasing. Depending on how well balanced those runes where. Assuming you're talking about new runes, and not just Limited/Premium edition runes. I really like that idea.

[PoxVega]

I really like that idea. That would make the campaigns worth purchasing. Depending on how well balanced those runes where. Assuming you're talking about new runes, and not just Limited/Premium edition runes. I really like that idea.


Yeah, totally new runes you could only get through individual campaigns.

[CSchwarz]

I agree with this as well. Free campaigns would not be on par with paid campaigns.

I also like the idea of potentially having the ability to instantly drop UNIQUE runes that are unique to each campaign. (if it drops).

Going off this and the rune-/fragment-conversion capabilitity...

You could have the unpaid campaigns drop regular white, blank, vanilla, normal fragments.

But then you could also have the premium campaigns drop 'premium fragments', and the paid campaigns drop, say, 'Grimlic fragments' or 'Titan fragments' or such, for each paid one.


Then the way it would work is that you could convert those Premium fragments to vanilla fragments, probably in a greater-than-1:1 ratio (either by increasing the conversion rate or by increasing the premium campaign drop rate), and you could convert the campaign-specific fragments to vanilla fragments (with whatever conversion rate) (or possibly to premium fragments as well, depending on your perceived priority).

From here it gets simple: The universal rewards for all campaigns get cashed in with vanilla fragments. Rewards for premium campaigns can only be cashed in for with premium fragments, and campaign-specific rewards can only be gotten in exchange for the campaign-specific fragments?

Like, to use an example with completely arbitrary numbers:

PLAYERONE has a premium account and has bought Grimlic's Descent.
PLAYERONE has gotten 200 vanilla fragments, 100 premium fragments, and 950 Grimlic fragments (he spends a lot of time on that one).

Let's say crafting a...Platinum Token takes 250 vanilla fragments
Premium fragments are worth, say, 5x vanillas, so PLAYERONE trades in 10 premium fragments to get 50 vanilla fragments, and then he uses his new 250-total vanilla fragments to craft a Platinum Token.
PLAYERONE now has 0 vanilla, 90 premium, and 950 Grimlic fragments.

So then, PLAYERONE finishes a grueling round of Grimlic's Descent, Legendary...And he got a free Gold Token! Whoo! He also got 80 Grimlic fragments, so now he has 1030. He has 1,000 Grimlic fragments now! He cashes in that thousand to get a Grimlic of K'Thir rune.

He wants to get another Silver Token, though, so takes advantage of his premium account status to spend 45 premium fragments on a Silver Token (converting to 225 vanilla fragments, so he's getting a discount).

After all this, PLAYERONE ends up with 0 vanilla fragments, 45 premium fragments, 30 Grimlic fragments, and Grimlic of K'thir, a Gold Token, and two Silver Tokens.


Or such. Arbitrary numbers and rewards used.


...Did that make any sense?

[Zoltor]

Omg yes by all means. I'm one of those people that do 100-300 runs of a campaign, without getting a exotic, and what makes it worse, when a exotic does actually drop, It's not the one I want(aka in Euans, I want a ST exotic, but ended up getting the IS exotic) sigh (as if it wasn't hard enough to get an exotic drop to begin with).

[Thataway]

Yeah, totally new runes you could only get through individual campaigns.


All I can say is wow. And also goodbye sleep. :D

[fireball94]

I like it. Also, when could we be able to customize the color or just base of a champion? I'm pretty sure I read something like that before from Daggan.

@CS: I really don't think KF needs the ability to run two heroes. Especially Grimlic of K'thir due to Teleport.

[Simoonx]

I like the suggestions and ideas people have come up with here. The system sounds much more enticing than the current one and I am glad we have the opportunity to discuss it here.

[Zoltor]

All I can say is wow. And also goodbye sleep. :D


Lol yea, but who needs sleep anyway, It's very overrated.

[Duality]

I agree with this as well. Free campaigns would not be on par with paid campaigns.

I also like the idea of potentially having the ability to instantly drop UNIQUE runes that are unique to each campaign. (if it drops).

This is a GREAT idea! (yeah, I said I was getting off, can't help myself) Plus, it would add incentive to actually PLAY some of the odd campaigns, since currently, there really isn't any reason to play certain campaigns due to both their difficulty and what they drop.


I like Burnova's idea as well. Plus, adding in drops during a campaign map would add incentive to not just speed through it..... And take some of the tedium out of it since there's always a chance of something nifty appearing while you are playing.


Just don't forget the discussion about letting campaigners use circus ^_^

[frogshine]

Sounds like a better system, I don't see any drawbacks.

[Fanatic]

I disapprove of this idea for many reasons it looses its feel rewards and game element/competition element that comes from campaigns.

campaigns as it stands now fall on the role of rpg like games good stuff takes alot of hard work patience and luck involved in finding rares items.(such as 0.001% for the good stuff but poxnora has a much higher rate of 7%)

The problem is with this change hard work luck(mainly) and patience which could have you easily catch up to other people who are better then you.(lot more runes)

This means that me trying to out compete someone who has all the exotics in the world such as Duality(famous campaigner) is completely gone and my competitive edge relying on luck is completely gone in crafting packs/LE market.

This change will change it from rpg to FPS stlye of gameplay (whos ever got the best weapons wins)

now you say there might not be a competitive edge to campaigns but imo there are finding more frags then someone with all runes at there disposal while you have a select few is competitive because your doing better then someone that has much greater chance then you to succeed then you do which is competitiveness in itself. Mainly because your showing that having x10 lich kings isnt the only answer to getting frags but luck and patience can out do them. <- competitive edge of the less rune endowed - luck

This current method of system is much better for newer players because if they get lucky (since campaigns proves luck has more to do then runes do) they might quickly and easily get ahead, i know it might be hard to handle if you dont have patience but do you really want to compete in a market where you get 1 point and someone gets 300 points in the same amount time, instead of a chance of you gettin 10 exo frags and them getting 0 - this leaves the most valuble method of newer players getting runes they need totally crushed (LE's since packs are random and a waste of time for new players even with a point system)

another thing is the rush you get after jack pot lottery runs, and the expense of opening a pack seeing what you get will be gone as well since you now have a point system and no random omg i got 2 exotic frags im rich =D! excitement, which is one reason i love campaigns its like opening packs without spending money. -you win some- -you loose some-

another thing is since i like the rpg element of it all the hard work and luck factor gone from campaigns will ruin campaigns for me, i seriously have no idea why id even play them after these changes all the basic elements are gone, and hard work isnt even as rewarding anymore - and i beleive in hard work and luck = rewards.(not the best runes in poxnora = reward)

and great job removing circus making campaigns that much harder really made it more rewarding and challenging. <- and i really enjoy this change.

and PS: can you give us a idea if this idea has a good chance to be implented so i can avoid buying campaigns (since ive lost all interest in campaigns if this is the case)

[CSchwarz]

I like it. Also, when could we be able to customize the color or just base of a champion? I'm pretty sure I read something like that before from Daggan.

@CS: I really don't think KF needs the ability to run two heroes. Especially Grimlic of K'thir due to Teleport.

That's why it was hypothetical. I just know of an idol unique to a campaign was Grimlic from GrimDesc. I didn't even know he had Teleport.
I think the dual-hero team-ups are a little (heh?) much as it is already, butunless it's removed, everyone's going to be fielding two heros at some point in the future.

@Fanatic: While I think that the luck part is a consideration, I've played MMORPGs such as Ragnarok, and I can say that the established players will get that 1/10k chance drop before a new player even gets to the area. Or if they don't, through the attempts they'll probably accumulate enough drops to pawn for money to buy it from the other established players that have it, and they'll buy it from the established players because the selling established players can afford to down-cost it; a new player, even having gotten 'x' 1/10k drop, can't afford to compete with the shops that can dip their prices lower.

[RaiddinnRZ]

I would be fine to convert to one system of "money" for pox.

Right now your best rewards come from getting an exo frag and making it into a PE. That is about a 7% drop rate on a legendary map at best. That means about 15 runs to avg 1 exo frag. You get approx 2000 in value for making something from non PE into PE.

Whatever system the stuff is changed to, it should be about 2000 in exo value for 15 runs through the campaign. Give us back 100 packs and make it cost 60 runs through a campaign.

Once you do that, make the fix to allow us 15/x decks so our campaign completion times will go back down to around 2 hours per full campaign instead of 1-2 hrs PER MAP.

If you do both of those things it just MIGHT be worth spending time to play pox... if you are someone who cares to actually get some long term benefit however small when you are playing a game (like virtually all MMORPG players).

Right now, you could work somewhere for minimum wage and have way way way better time/reward ratios. This would NOT change if both the above fixes were in, but at least we wouldn't be working to make tremendously below minimum wage anymore.

Raiddinn

[LawfulEvil]

I like the idea of a single fragment currency. I also think the suggestion for random drops/objectives on maps is another great idea which gives us multiple chances for a "shiny" or "wow factor".

[Rodin]

Yeah, totally new runes you could only get through individual campaigns.

I love this idea, although there are a couple things you'd have to make sure of. If the runes you get from the campaign are very good, they would need to be tradable. Otherwise, the forums will erupt from those that don't care for the campaigns at "being forced to play them over and over again to be competitive".

Alternatively, you could make them specific enough that they would only be includable in a currently shoebox type of BG in order to encourage it - for example, a rune with Boost: Spider on it or some such. This would stop top decks from just dropping the new rune in, and would encourage the players that tend to go with oddball deck builds.

Definitely love the neutral fragments idea, and especially love the stealthed Moga Pup multiplier bonuses. That would make playing a campaign effectively much more rewarding. You could even add in Achievements for, say, beating Grimlic's Descent without losing any of the K'thir units that are provided for you at the beginning of each stage.

This could extend to multiplayer achievements - each time you net an achievement, you get a fragment bonus, but only if you win the battle. The harder to achieve, the more fragments.

[Ragic]

I think you guys should keep the various campaigns unique in what rewards they offer. If all campaigns dropped the same generic fragment, ppl would just farm the easiest one.

[GangGreen]

First off, i like the fact campaigns are getting some love. all the ideas i have heard i think are great.

second, circus needs to come back most are way to hard without it.

Last, I have a idea to add. you talked about getting a chance at a uniqe rune drop. With us now having a 30 rune dock how about we do this. If you do get lucky and get a uniqe rune drop then make it so you could get any one rune in the game from common to exotic minus any one that is uniqe or a hero. So when some one might get lucky they could get a boghopper or a draco lich. Put a orange base around it.
so if i get a boghopper then i can play the two normal ones and my orange based on for a total of 3 in my rune dock. With 30 rune dock i think this would offer alot more options.

you could also make it that free campaigns will only have the chance at dropping commons
premi campaigns would only drop uncommons
paid campaigns would only drop rares with the smallest chance of a exotic

[Thataway]

I have an idea for one of the "shineys"

Let me preface this by saying I do not want this to be the only unique rune.

A rune with a pic of the campaigns they were won on with a history on the back. I know it's not exciting but it could be tradable and would appeal to the collectors out there.

[Theosebes]

PoxVega; please, please don't listen to the naysayers.

What you have floated here is the most incredibly good idea I have heard since you released the campaigns.

I disapprove of this idea for many reasons it looses its feel rewards and game element/competition element that comes from campaigns.
The current system (especially without being able to do at least 15/circus) in the campaigns basically means that the only way to get anything of worth (i.e. exo frags) is to make massive numbers of runs on a campaign that you may not like.

For example, with frags I have now, all I need to craft a 25 rune pack is a Frostborn exo. However, if I don't enjoy running the campaigns where the Frostborn drops, it is not fun or competitive to run that campaign the dozens of times I am going to need to in order to grab that particular specific frag.

So the rewards aspect forces me to go through a tedious process I don't enjoy in order to redeem that reward. If they go to one single currency (i.e. generic frags) I can run the campaign I enjoy running, and gather the points I need at my pace. In other words, I can enjoy the process.

campaigns as it stands now fall on the role of rpg like games good stuff takes alot of hard work patience and luck involved in finding rares items.(such as 0.001% for the good stuff but poxnora has a much higher rate of 7%)
If that is true, then the "good stuff" you mention will be the "shiny" (or "positive reinforcment with variable ratio scheduling" lol) that PoxVega mentioned. The unique random drops should be a collector item, not the main focus of the generic reward imho.

The problem is with this change hard work luck(mainly) and patience which could have you easily catch up to other people who are better then you.(lot more runes)
I have seen you mention a disparity equating the possesion of more runes to a better ability to run the campaigns. The assertion, as I understand it, is that if a person has more runes available to them, that person can beat the campaign faster. I will concede that having more runes available gives you more strategies available to use. But that does not a better player make. Most of the old strats in campaigns could be run with no exos, or one or two at the most, and since Duality and others share their strats so readily, one can get the runes needed with a minimum of trading.

But even if the ultimate goal of someone is to get more runes, and be able to run more different strategies, the proposed system makes that easier for a player with few runes. For example, if I was to purchase only one sample BG, and run the free campaigns right now, no matter how skilled I get with those runes, I will never be able to gather what is needed to get a free pack - exo frags don't drop in the free campaigns. However, in the proposed system, under that same scenario, I could eventially be able to work up enough points to pick up a pack, and maybe be able to trade for better runes.

This means that me trying to out compete someone who has all the exotics in the world such as Duality(famous campaigner) is completely gone and my competitive edge relying on luck is completely gone in crafting packs/LE market.
If you are looking at the campaigns as a competitive game (which I don't agree with, I think that is what PvP is for -campaigs, imho is not a competitive thing, but I digress) - if you do look at it that way, then relying on luck to be your competitive edge basically means that you never can be better on your own skill. I am of the opinion that a competitive edge should rely on skill, not better items or luck. But especially not luck.

The way the campaigns stand now, luck is the determining factor. I can run 500 times and not get a single exo. But someone can run the same campaign and catch 2 exos. Even if that person had to re-try one of the rounds 30 times, but I was skillful enough to get by it first time.

This change will change it from rpg to FPS stlye of gameplay (whos ever got the best weapons wins)
I have played plenty of FPS games where the skillful person with a simple pistol beats the field of people with all the best weaps the game has. It's not what weap (or rune) you have, it's how you use it.

This current method of system is much better for newer players
imho this is the complete opposite of the truth. The fact that exo frags drop so rarely means that unless someone really gets to know the ins and outs of the campaigns, the chances of them getting the frags they need for a 25pack is so slim, that they are going to lose heart long before they can actually collect the frags.

The proposed system is better for the newer players because they aren't racing anyone else to get a 25 pack or LE, the only time aspect for someone new to things is whether or not they get disheartened by the fact that 500 runs later they don't have the frags they need for an LE or 25 pack.

The other thing that is unfavorable for new players is the fact that there is 32 different fragment types that they have to keep track of. That is not better than a single system of simple fragments with some additional "shiny" drops for the wow factor.

...because if they get lucky ... they might quickly and easily get ahead, i know it might be hard to handle if you dont have patience ...
The problem is that for a new player that is trying to "get ahead" the daunting task of getting specific frags for an LE is likely to convince them that Pox Nora is not the game for them. If they get lucky, and then try to replicate that luck, that is only going to be even more disheartening.

another thing is the rush you get after jack pot lottery runs, ...
That is why PoxVega mentioned the "Shiny" factor.

... the hard work and luck factor gone from campaigns will ruin campaigns for me, ... and i beleive in hard work and luck = rewards.(not the best runes in poxnora = reward)
The best runes in poxnora is not = reward, and will not be in the proposed system. In fact if anything, in the proposed system it will be much much easier for someone with extremely limited runes to get what it is that they need to get a crafted LE or 25 pack.

The only thing that I can think of that would make someone believe that the new proposed system in not better in every way is that person believes that the LE market will be devauled by more people having the ability to get crafted LEs more easily that the current system, and they want LEs to stay expensive.

imho, more people getting crafted LEs more easily is a good thing.

[Fanatic]

i dont like the fact you say dont listen to the naysayers naysayers have a voice to, second of all the shiny factor of getting a oooh silver token is no where close to getting a grim shard frag, also best runes do mean faster campaigns since there not only the best combat champs there also the best for the campaign in the past people used glacial titan + reanimate to cheese threw - i had neither of those runes so my luck was my best strategy against people with huge collections of runes just looking to get richer.

second of all i see no reason why i should be punished in this new system, sure sometimes i can play 60 games get 0 frags but then play 60 and get 25.

yeah im loking forward to 10 hours me = exo frag - 1 hour duality = 2 exo frags awesome instead of my usual lucky self of me 6 them 1 for example. (i dont like unfair advantages based purely on runes like DOW sure luck isnt a set factor but its great one and campaigns take 0 skill to play you can even manipulate the ai to do stupid things - and limited LE's is a big factor not to introduce this due to duality abusing campaigns and getting them all before other people can)(fairness is also a key point here)

though i get alot of frags im not greedy ive traded them way under there value multiple times, duality if you looked in other threads is solely in the money factor.

this whole set up benefits rich campaigners short and long run - and people who play campaigns for there first exo frag - after that in the end the rich come ahead.

[haroldkin]

Great thread, and wonderful to see this topic getting attention again.

Personally, I don't see any problem with the current fragment system. The random factor is fun, and the shinny/shiney/shiny!! :D factor is much of the thrill. Indeed, I really like all the suggestions for adding more unique, ie, shiny drops. Pox very much appeals to the collector scum in many of us. Changing the campaign drops to a static, one size fits all currency just doesn't sound anywhere near as appealling as the current fragment setup, with or without extra shinies.

There are really only two serious problems with the current system.

1. Not enough to do with the fragments. Changing to a point system won't change this fact. Before we talk about whether the fragments need to be changed or simplified, we first need MORE things to do with those shinies.

2. Fragments can't be traded or converted. I've never quite understood this. I can only assume it's to keep premium only features out of non-premium hands. Seems an easy fix to only allow frag conversion recipes or frag trading between premium members. Granted, a point system would eliminate this problem, but at the greater loss of the random factor, (remember, collector scum).

I saw at least one post that suggested condensing the frags to 4 Prot and 4 Wrath, with no more individual breakdown by faction. That's a pretty good comprimise. It would allow for the current egg hunt to remain in place, and that wow factor of seeing a purple circle on the summary page. It would also allow for a simplification of the recipes and perhaps eliminate need for frag conversion, (ie, 100 Wrath pack would require 4 wrath exos, period, without the pain of having to find one of each faction). I can still see a lot of potential for faction specific recipes, though, and faction specific frags would be quite flavorful in this regard. Preferably, recipes that are currently not faction specific would be altered to take any valid fragment. Thus the 100 Wrath pack would be craftable with, say, 1 dragonbur, 1 warstone and 2 hexbloods, for example, but 1 dragonbur, 1 warstone, 1 hexblood and 1 oathstone would not be valid because it contains a Prot frag.

Again, great to see this topic in discussion again. However, don't reinvent the wheel when all it really needs is a little air.

[Lukkas]

This change will change it from rpg to FPS stlye of gameplay (whos ever got the best weapons wins)

You have the play styles completely mixed up....

In RPG games the person who has the 'epic' weapons wins w/o requiring as much skill. The more time you put into an RPG the better your weapons will get.

FPS everyone is on an equal playing field. They all have access to the same weapons to some extent. No matter how long you play your weapon won't get better and carry you. Your strategy and understanding of the game will be what allow you to win over other players.

[LawfulEvil]

First off, i like the fact campaigns are getting some love. all the ideas i have heard i think are great.

second, circus needs to come back most are way to hard without it.

Last, I have a idea to add. you talked about getting a chance at a uniqe rune drop. With us now having a 30 rune dock how about we do this. If you do get lucky and get a uniqe rune drop then make it so you could get any one rune in the game from common to exotic minus any one that is uniqe or a hero. So when some one might get lucky they could get a boghopper or a draco lich. Put a orange base around it.
so if i get a boghopper then i can play the two normal ones and my orange based on for a total of 3 in my rune dock. With 30 rune dock i think this would offer alot more options.

you could also make it that free campaigns will only have the chance at dropping commons
premi campaigns would only drop uncommons
paid campaigns would only drop rares with the smallest chance of a exotic

Good stuff GangGreen, those would be some cool implementations.

[Fanatic]

You have the play styles completely mixed up....

In RPG games the person who has the 'epic' weapons wins w/o requiring as much skill. The more time you put into an RPG the better your weapons will get.

FPS everyone is on an equal playing field. They all have access to the same weapons to some extent. No matter how long you play your weapon won't get better and carry you. Your strategy and understanding of the game will be what allow you to win over other players.

but it requires luck and hard work to get those epic omgosh stuff and patience thats why its like a rpg. and in FPS knife vs rocket launcher or pistol vs sniper, seriously whos out gunned the rocket launcher dude? - which is what this system will do.

[Sackett]

Yeah, totally new runes you could only get through individual campaigns.

That would be totally awesome!

I actually don't mind the current fragment system that much. Personally I don't see that much difference between it and the "point system"

The problem is the lack of options of things to craft. Right now the best things to craft are all super hard to get, and you don't want to make it easy to get Rune packs.

We definitely need more extras like Aruas, or color palette change, or something.

And better taunts- goodness do we need better taunts- and more of them. Maybe a preset list of words from which you can create your own taunts?

Maybe something that adds a new animation to a rune- or an ability that can only be added through fragments- not an ability that effects game play, but one that does something that "looks cool".

More options are what is needed. The system used to deliver it is not that important.

One thing in favor of fragments, I kind of like how you have to get an exotic frag from the same faction to make an LE for that faction. But like I said, there need to be more things to craft. That's more important than the system- so if simplifying the system takes a lot of programing time, I'd prefer that time be spent on making better rewards.


PS: We also need Circus back. If you can't play awesome overpowered Circus in Single Player it kills half the fun of campaigns. Just because you guys seem to think they should be played one way, doesn't mean that people can't have fun in a different way.

[Moijo]

In regards to the simplification of fragments:

Yes, please make one type of fragment that ALL campaigns give instead of the over complicated fragments we use today. Also, premium members should get a 2x drop rate on fragments... something that gives an extra benefit for being premium.

Also, boss "drops" that drop things such as reset tokens are a nice idea as well as earning exclusive champs by finishing campaigns or potentially earning exclusive runes.

[goldmonkee]

Sounds good to me.

[Ashkenaz]

Omg yes by all means. I'm one of those people that do 100-300 runs of a campaign, without getting a exotic, and what makes it worse, when a exotic does actually drop, It's not the one I want(aka in Euans, I want a ST exotic, but ended up getting the IS exotic) sigh (as if it wasn't hard enough to get an exotic drop to begin with).

lol i was opposite i wanted IS and got ST...

yes i would love to see it work this way...i assume you would find a way of distributing the current frags. common = W frags, unc = X frags, rare = Y frags, exotic = Z frags.

[gumph242]

This is a fantastic idea and I think could revitalise the campaigns a lot.

[walkindude]

this thread contains loads of ideas that sound very fun and interesting to me.

[GangGreen]

Ok here is what i recommend, you all tell me how it sounds.

1. First bring back circus.

2. leave fragments as is, but only have two types PRO and WRAITH.

3. Add to the player rewards, need to be able to craft more things(this is most important).

4. Free campaigns will only drop commons. Premi will only drop Uncommon. Paid campaigns will only drop Rares with a small % of it being a exotic.
Now each fragment that drops should have a very small chance of being bumped up to a Orange based rune, that could be any in the game minus a unique or hero, it could be added so that you could now use a total of 3 in battle group.
Example, You are playing free campaign and one of your common fragments was lucky enough to get a orange based rune. Then you would get on random common that is not a hero or unique. Say you get a BOGHOPPER. Now you can have 3 boghoppers(max) in your battlegroup. The two reg ones and the orange based one. And put a cap of max of 3 of any runes in battle group as long as one is orange based. Now to get a exotic orange base would be very very rare due to the fact you have a small % you will get a exotic frag drop in payed campaigns then another small % of that becoming a orange based exotic.

5. Let us trade in our tons of common and uncommon runes for fragments of same rareity.
i.e. I could trade in the 50 extra brambles i have for 50 common PRO fragments. and no trading in of rares or exotics. This will only be good if they add to player rewards.

[fireball94]

Ok here is what i recommend, you all tell me how it sounds.

1. First bring back circus.

2. leave fragments as is, but only have two types PRO and WRAITH.

3. Add to the player rewards, need to be able to craft more things(this is most important).

4. Free campaigns will only drop commons. Premi will only drop Uncommon. Paid campaigns will only drop Rares with a small % of it being a exotic.
Now each fragment that drops should have a very small chance of being bumped up to a Orange based rune, that could be any in the game minus a unique or hero, it could be added so that you could now use a total of 3 in battle group.
Example, You are playing free campaign and one of your common fragments was lucky enough to get a orange based rune. Then you would get on random common that is not a hero or unique. Say you get a BOGHOPPER. Now you can have 3 boghoppers(max) in your battlegroup. The two reg ones and the orange based one. And put a cap of max of 3 of any runes in battle group as long as one is orange based. Now to get a exotic orange base would be very very rare due to the fact you have a small % you will get a exotic frag drop in payed campaigns then another small % of that becoming a orange based exotic.

5. Let us trade in our tons of common and uncommon runes for fragments of same rareity.
i.e. I could trade in the 50 extra brambles i have for 50 common PRO fragments. and no trading in of rares or exotics. This will only be good if they add to player rewards.

That would make Premium pretty much more useless than it is now.

[GangGreen]

That would make Premium pretty much more useless than it is now.

Not really there are some good Uncommon runes out there that i would love to have 3 of in my battle group. Not to mention there might be a player reward that i need a uncommon frag for. Plus campaigns are not the only thing that premis benefit from.

[archlorddt]

it cant be 2000 because that would take about 500 campaigns (not just levels, full campaigns) to farm.

[kneveux]

it cant be 2000 because that would take about 500 campaigns (not just levels, full campaigns) to farm.


I'm pretty sure each level would not drop a single fragment, but a set amount, based on difficulty and other factors.

[killabud69]

I love the sound of this idea as I am just getting into the whole farming of campaigns. The reward system should reflect your effort put into the campaigns more than just sheer luck as well as getting better rewards for purchased campaigns and premium. Think of it this way you'll make a whole lot more $$ from campaigns and premium if you offer great rewards like if you ran Euan 50 times on legendary you could get a LK or 100 and you can get a free FW Avatar (sheer arbitrary numbers and rewards obviously). Then while playing through the campaign if you beat it in X amount of time you get lets say a 10 or 20 pack of Wrath runes or tokens as just a drop. Then with the free campaigns you can only get like name change tokens and lesser runes. Yea that kinda shafts those of us who can't afford to dump money into games like this but hey until everything in the world is free get used to it. Just don't go boosting the price of campaigns because of it please.

[redbarret]

Better then how we have it but maybe it's because I dont spend any more money on this game... But then again...

[haroldkin]

I'm pretty sure each level would not drop a single fragment, but a set amount, based on difficulty and other factors.

The one thing a campaign should NOT do is drop a set amount each and every time. The best part of the current system is the possibility that lady luck will shine in your favor and drop the frag you're looking for. Of course, it usually doesn't happen, but maybe it will on the next run. This 'carrot effect' is what drives all of us to farm.

If we know Nora Surge will drop 20 points per run, and we know it costs 2000 points for a 100 pack, we also know we >will< have to do 100 runs to get that 100 pack. Each and every time. Knowing how much work will need to be done, especially for a lofty goal like a 100 pack, will surely make campaigns a grind indeed. Gone is the carrot effect and any hope that a 100 pack might be scored earlier than the prerequisite 100 runs.

If we're to switch to a single currency, then their should still be some randomness involved in order to keep the carrot effect which would insure that anticipation of the 'Wow' factor. Perhaps each campaign would have a base range of points it will drop. For example, Nora Surge, map 1 on easy might drop 1 or 2 points whereas map 5 on Legendary might drop 11 - 18. This would help satisfy the carrot effect. Each campaign would effectively have a lowest possible amount of points that could be earned, but lady luck would instill the possibility for more.

Adding some mechanic to influence the drop rate would also be a big boost to the campaigns. Completing side quests, meeting acheivements, etc, should have some reward as this would encourage players to really immerse themselves into the campaign and enjoy, rather than just doing speed runs.

OK, I'm warming to this idea more and more. What sold me is the possibility that my efforts to campaign might be equally rewarded no matter what campaign I play. I play Nora Surge 99% of the time, (though I haven't run anything for two months, but that's another story...). However, please keep that carrot effect well and alive. Nothing will kill the thrill of campaigning more thoroughly than knowing I >must< do a set number of runs to get what I'm after.

[CSchwarz]

That's the "shinny" (did he mean shiny or shiney?) PoxVega was talking about. I particularly like the idea of random chance token drops, but that 'carrot effect' (it seems like everyone has their own term for it, like Burnova's 'positive reinforcment with variable ratio scheduling'. It's cool to see what everyone calls it) seems to be a big focus so far, Vega and players alike.


Edit: dangit, the 'choose post icon' thing is totally messing with my metrics! I end my posts with 'Tab+Space', only to wait a couple seconds before realizing it isn't loading...

[josh753]

It look to me like a great idea, i have like 150 fragments i never use x'D
:p

[Duality]

Harold, the other option would be as Burnova suggested;
By adding random drops, like campaign unique runes or tokens or frag multipliers or whatever to the campaigns, (from dead champions or however you do it) the shiny factor would be extended to the ENTIRE MAP, and not just the 5 seconds between the enemy shrine dying and the end screen loading.

Hell, Vega could use his ground glyph thing, something that appears randomly on the map, and if you run a champion over it in a certain period of time (before it disappears) you get a reward.

Yes, it would limit that end shiny factor, but assuming that the drops ON the maps weren't 1/100000, personally I think it would make up for it. Well, assuming that what dropped was actually interesting ^_^


I would like to re-iterate whoever said "PLEASE GOD DON'T MAKE ANY CAMPAIGN UNIQUE RUNES EVEN CLOSE TO 1x AUTOINCLUDE!" That's just asking to piss people who only play DoW off since they will either have to trade an arm and a leg or play the campaigns.

[Crex90]

I agree with this as well. Free campaigns would not be on par with paid campaigns.

I also like the idea of potentially having the ability to instantly drop UNIQUE runes that are unique to each campaign. (if it drops).

Unique runes? Like perhaps a token that can turn any Skeezik into an LE version of the same Skeezik for completing Skeezik Rebellion or something like that?

Love the idea of making frags less about luck.

[Theosebes]

Fanatic: When I urged PoxVega to not listen to the naysayers, I was not referring to someone who had a reason they chose to express for either wanting the system to stay the same, or wanting a change, just not the propsed one. Of course everyone has a right to express thier opinion. I was referring to those who say no, don't do the proposed system without expressing a reason, as some have done in other threads. I should have made that more clear. Since you expressed a reason, I was not by any means referring to you.

As to your response; the shiny factor would (hopefully) never be something like a simple silver token. I will post my thoughts on the 'shiny' a bit later. Where they would be roughly equivelent to getting a grimshard exo.

Having every rune in the game does not mean you can run a campaign faster than anyone else. Knowing how to use them does. In the case of someone like me, who is not the best strategical thinker, I rely oftentimes on the ideas that generous folks like Duality post to get ideas on how to go through them faster. However, even without that, I have taken on personal challenges, like doing some of the campaigns with nothing but commons in my deck. (I have yet to finish any of them on Leg with commons, but I have done the Hard on one of them) If that's the style you like, nothing is stopping you from doing that - it does sound like you enjoy challenges like that.

However, for those trying to aquire shards for something specific, and trying to get through the campaigns as quickly as possible, there have been multiple threads detailing multiple strategies to speed your way through the campaigns. Those often include strategies that allow you to do it quickly with several alternatives to specific runes. (i.e. the Glacial Titan strategy) But even if you wanted to go that specific route because of it's ease (there were other ways to do it just as fast, but they were more complicated - and they are the stategies that had to be used after the planar instability change) it is very easy to trade for the specific runes you need to do that.

So having more runes do not equal a faster run, imho. Knowing how to use them does, and if a strategy you want to use requires a specific rune, trading for it and borrowing it are so easy, it really is not a barrier in my opinion. Especially with how many generous people there are in PoxNora. Each faction has a rune bank, and oftentimes you can get something there, player run stores have a lot of what you need, and there are tons of people that would be willing to let you borrow runes - I have both borrowed and lent runes quite a lot.

I don't see luck as being something that should be someone's only hope for aquiring what they need. If someone can do 500 runs and not get anything usefull for their time (which is the way the system is now) but the next person gets lucky and is able to get a pair of exo shards in 1 run, that is a system that discourages use.

I don't see the proposed system as punishing you in any way. In the new system, you would have as much opportunity to get what you want (LEs etc...) as anyone else. And if you don't feel like you can run through them fast enough, "sell" a strategy to someone for a rare or exo, trade up to the runes you feel you need to get through it faster, and go for it.

Your example of 10 hours for you = 1 exo frag, and 1 hour Dualite = 2 exo frags applies now. I can run through a campaign 500 times, spend 3 days solid running it and not end up with anything that I can use. But in that same 3 days you could do 3 runs and get 3 exo frags. That, imho, is an unbalanced system that discourages play. I believe that the system should give at least a medium reward for casual play. Right now I feel it discourages it.

You say that fairness is a key point. If that is the case, then the proposed system is actually a lot better. Right now the only way to get a frag is to run through as many times as possible on Leg, and hope that your lucky enough to get an exo frag. However, for someone like myself, who does not have a lot of time to dedicate, this means that I will likely never be able to craft a 25pack, much less a 100.

However, someone like yourself, or Duality (and btw, I do take excpetion to you saying that Duality abuses campaigns, I disagreee with that completely, nobody has done more to help those who who want to get through the campaigns as quickly as possible, but I digress) who may have a bit more time is able to "roll the dice" as it were more times than I, giving them a higher probability to pull an exo. You say you don't like unfair advantages based purely on runes. Since runes can be aquired a number of ways (more than one person has turned a shoebox common into an exo through trading, you also have the rune exchange, single rune store, borrowing, etc...) I would much rather have no advantage to the person who can spend more time in front of the computer. The only way to get good frags in the current system is how many times can you roll the dice (complete the campaigns) allowing yourself a greater chance to get them.

You said "getting them all before other people can"; the frags are not a 0 sum game - if person A gets an exo frag, and person B finishes the campaign two minutes later, person B does not mis out on an exo just because person A got one. You say you have traded frags away at under value (I am assuming you mean crafted LEs) and that Duality is in it just for the money factor. However, Duality is one of the few people that show people how to speed through the campaigns as fast as possible, show new strategies, and alternatives to slogging through. Unlike people that farm just for the money and keep their strategies to themselves like so many other games I have played.

In the current system, someone who does not have the skill (or runes, as you have said) to be able to defeat the campaign on legendary will never, ever be able to craft an LE, or grab a 25pack, much less a 100 no matter how often they run it. In the proposed system however, they could eventually build up enough to get an LE, or 25 pack, and trade up to the runes they need to use that special strategy to be able to finally beat legendary.

If fairness is the issue, the proposed system is far far more fair than what is in place now.

GangGreen: Since beta is no longer a part of Premium, the premium only campaigns is the only thing left of any worth to pick the premium up for. If you cannot get an exo from a premium campaign, there would be no reason to pick up Premium for more than the minimum period you need to do some rune exchanges, or purchase something with the single rune discount - both of which are minor, and don't offset the cost, even with the pack allowance.

[Zoltor]

Unique runes? Like perhaps a token that can turn any Skeezik into an LE version of the same Skeezik for completing Skeezik Rebellion or something like that?

Love the idea of making frags less about luck.

Omg, I would love that(of course have simular tokens for the other factions as well). I've been asking to beable to have any champ beable to become an LE for ages now.

[redbarret]

Just to make it fair have the member ship pay less for packs and stuff.

[sirpent]

This system has me excited for campaign play and if it ever breaks ground I might actually play some campaigns again.
-A casual play reward system would be much appreciated and maybe even a save game state feature (if you gotta leave in the middle of one for 8 hours, you don't exactly want the server to keep the game open on pause do you?)
-Try to make it feel less grind-y though by making the AI more interesting and less static
-Unique rewards like runes or maybe more vanity items like skulls hanging from your avatar or something, also name change to be seen by everyone (you can still swear at players in chat, why would a name be any different, just filter it, if that's the reason behind not seeing them)
Thanks for listening!

[Theosebes]

Sorry for the walls of text here guys, I do feel strongly about this, and I am very excited that this is even something they are thinking about.

PoxVega: Your proposed, hypothetical system is one I like. It is simple, allows new players and experienced players alike access to be able to aquire thing like LEs and packs, and gives people who prefer PvP the ability to accumulate frags as well for those things. I like the idea of having just the one frag type, and I prefer it to the proposals of having one type, just different rarities, or splitting them into just wrath/prot.

The reason is that oftentimes folks like myself, who have limited time to play, want to play a campaign for fun, not just farming. If that does not happen to be the campaign that drops a specific frag type, or rarity, then it drops a lot of the fun out of it. One type and one rarity is preferable imho, and just make it so that the amounts that drop from specific campaigns and dificulties are the gating factor. That way someone could still accumulate enough to craft an LE by playing the normal level of the free campaign, it would just take them a looot longer to get there.

There are only 2 things that I feel are critical points that could be a big detraction.

1. There does need to be the OMG look at what I just got factor. A lot of the ideas here are pretty good, from task specific drops in the campaigns, to your mention of 10packs or Exclusive Runes. I agree with some here who have said that the 'shiny' should not be game changing (i.e. Auto-include runes that cannot be acquired any other way) or something that would be completely useless either. That is a tough balance to strike, but I do have a couple of ideas.

Exlusive runes. The set of exclusives that you can pick up from the store cards are a good example. They are decent runes, not auto-include, but not complete junk either. (the windfury with the broken Sweep was op, but he got fixed lol) They fill a role in some decks, and have the collector's item feel to them as well. In the case of ones that dropped in campaigns, you could make them fit the theme of the campaign. For example you could have something like this: http://forums.poxnora.com/showthread.php?p=303594#post303594 drop on the Avatar campaign.

LEs. This would be a huge OMG moment - an existing LE drops for you. The rareness factor for this would need to be quite high, but it could be a really good addition for wow factor. The problem there is that with a hard limit of 1000 LEs you would have to keep close track of these.

Unglued/Unhinged style runes. I am a big fan of hilarity/ridiculousness/humor in games like this. The Headless Zombie is, imho, absolutely hilarious. If you were to create a series of runes whose sole purpose was humor, with a lot of meta/community references, this would be the perfect place to distribute them. The Undertortise would have been the perfect example of a rune to include in this group. These runes would need to be restricted to Casual play and Campaigns only.

As sirpent mentioned - vanity items
Some of the things that could drop could be items like:
Lucky Dog Award - Visible in the recent awards section of the profile. The drop chance on this would be very rare
Campaigner Border - an avatar border on the forum that is slightly different - visible to all.
Exclusive Taunts - A series of taunt tokens that can only be acquired through these drops. They could say things like "Go back and practice on the AI" (I am not the most creative when it comes to taunts, I am sure others can come up with better ones.)


2. The second issue that could be a detractor to the new system is farmers who have all the time in the world on their hands. Despite the fact that I do not agre with most of Fanatic's assertions, he does have one point that I believe he was trying to make that I do agree with: If someone can get super-rich in generic frags (or points, or whatever) they could concievably skew the market if they made so much that they could craft 200 LEs. I see this as more a time issue than access to runes though. I don't think it will get that bad unless someone is able to craft a bot that allows them to farm all day and all night, but I wouldn't put it past someone to do that.

My idea to combat this though is fairly straight-forward. Code the drops to begin to have diminishing returns.

What I mean by that is that if one person (numbers are just an example) runs the same campaign 10 times in an hour, his drop rate will get slimmer and slimmer. If a person runs the same set of campaigns 40 times in a week, same deal. Something along those lines. That way the serious farmers won't be able to try corner the market in any one LE

[Aztech]

Please do it! Might bring me to play campaigns again...

[RaiddinnRZ]

If people are worried about others cornering the market on LEs, the game makers could just hard code it so you cant craft an LE if you already have the same one on your account. Doing this would guarantee that nobody could screw the system on the crafting side. If they tried to screw the system on the buying side, players would probably figure it out way before anything market unbalancing happened.

What I would like to see is, say, 10 points per map completion, with 2 different enemies in the level randomly selected to have 10 extra points each. Thus if you slogged through the map killing everything until you got the two extra specific kills you could get 3 times the end result. Thus you would have the choice between (1) complete the map faster for less reward or (2) complete the map slower for larger rewards.

If we need to have a "shiny" factor, make it a "blue" token or something where it would change the color of your guy or something like that.

In the end, I think what we all want is to have our time all mostly be worth the same in terms of game impact. I hate the thought of doing 40 campaigns and getting 0 exos while some other guy does the campaign 40 times and gets 40 exos. I just hate that thought like nothing else. My being able to trade an exo frag for 2000 exo credits is one of the best ways I have of getting new and better cards.

I have bought my share of packs and, honestly... I really wish I could buy 9 packs each with 10% chance for an exo and actually get an exo. Buying packs is just an exercise in depression for me.

I would rather spend my money buying individual campaigns for $5 each rather than buying packs for the same.

Raiddinn

[SyeLeonis]

sounds like a fantastic idea, I am fully for this. I have a mass of commons and uncommons that I get from the camps but cant use until I find a rare or god forbid a exo. I'm kind of excited about this proposal...now the only issue is bringing back circus decks to at least campaigns...

-Sye

[Keishan]

great idea i give my full suport

[Zodiac12]

As a hardcore campaigner I am all for a change similar to the one proposed. I'm not for sure exactly which way it should be altered, but I do honestly want/believe they need change. I have tons of frags (non-exo) that I can't do much with (IMO). No upgrade system or personalized reward to buy. I get the cp from the games. People can't see the names. The taunts are interesting but blah. The CP and Packs are awesome, but incredibly hard to get unless you farm. I don't like farmers in any game but a good balance could be struck for casual and farmers, eh? So we can all have fun and get a little bit to walk away with?!

Luck and myself don't get along, so a standardized system sounds good to me. Clearing maps of all enemies (minus cheeze), saving special champs, playing FF or 15/15 (not circus, even as much as i love it), maybe even how fast you Win a camp. and other variables should be at least thought about in reguards to giving extra Frags/kudos/Achievements..w/e. That would be all the shiny I'd need if there was a proper reward boost at the End... To beat a single player completely and get a 'pat on the back' for the extra effort (not cheeze/abuse) and some other cookies along the way! ; )

A little bonus to Premium and Purchased would be appreciated also. The profile achievements are cool, but extras could add a lot of allure to really getting into Single Player. Not just mindless repetition, but fun adventures. I've always thought a platform (jump/tele/flying) stage would be awesome if done right. Maybe give extra recipes for crafting so the Prems do the crafting.

-zod

p.s. sorry circus, i miss you :*(

[korelll]

sounds can you list current rewards compared to new ones

[LordSerkan]

I've beaten nora surge on legendary about 30 times now all told and have never once received an exotic fragment. I'm all for something that removes the random factor for rewards from playing campaigns.

LS

[redbarret]

I've beaten nora surge on legendary about 30 times now all told and have never once received an exotic fragment. I'm all for something that removes the random factor for rewards from playing campaigns.

LS

Sure be nice to have all that time back or if it was worth it.

[Flegias]

I really like the idea!! Make it happen! :)

[Mosherness]

I wholeheartedly support this proposed change idea.

[rarinden]

I like this idea Pox Vega really eliminates the 1000's of useless common uncommon fragments

[Shadyguy1]

I really like this idea, but the conversion rates would have to be really carefully thought out so all of people's previous fragments don't get made worthless.

[Contextual]

First of all, I am very happy that the crafted packs came back.
Second of all, I am very happy that the greens are considering ways of giving us even more presents.
I like what Harold said:

Great thread, and wonderful to see this topic getting attention again.

Personally, I don't see any problem with the current fragment system. The random factor is fun, and the shinny/shiney/shiny!! :D factor is much of the thrill. Indeed, I really like all the suggestions for adding more unique, ie, shiny drops. Pox very much appeals to the collector scum in many of us. Changing the campaign drops to a static, one size fits all currency just doesn't sound anywhere near as appealling as the current fragment setup, with or without extra shinies.

There are really only two serious problems with the current system.

1. Not enough to do with the fragments. Changing to a point system won't change this fact. Before we talk about whether the fragments need to be changed or simplified, we first need MORE things to do with those shinies.

2. Fragments can't be traded or converted. I've never quite understood this. I can only assume it's to keep premium only features out of non-premium hands. Seems an easy fix to only allow frag conversion recipes or frag trading between premium members. Granted, a point system would eliminate this problem, but at the greater loss of the random factor, (remember, collector scum).

I saw at least one post that suggested condensing the frags to 4 Prot and 4 Wrath, with no more individual breakdown by faction. That's a pretty good comprimise. It would allow for the current egg hunt to remain in place, and that wow factor of seeing a purple circle on the summary page. It would also allow for a simplification of the recipes and perhaps eliminate need for frag conversion, (ie, 100 Wrath pack would require 4 wrath exos, period, without the pain of having to find one of each faction). I can still see a lot of potential for faction specific recipes, though, and faction specific frags would be quite flavorful in this regard. Preferably, recipes that are currently not faction specific would be altered to take any valid fragment. Thus the 100 Wrath pack would be craftable with, say, 1 dragonbur, 1 warstone and 2 hexbloods, for example, but 1 dragonbur, 1 warstone, 1 hexblood and 1 oathstone would not be valid because it contains a Prot frag.

Again, great to see this topic in discussion again. However, don't reinvent the wheel when all it really needs is a little air.

Combining to two types with 4 rarities would simplify a lot and make rewards a lot more achievable. There also would not be any debate/complaining over how many "points" a common should convert into VS. an uncommon, etc. etc.
I also think there should be a way to craft common/uncommon/rare fragments into frags of the next level or, at least, into lower-tier runes/reset tokens.
Letting me actually USE all my tokens (on something that isn't just decoration) would be a much better idea, IMO, than switching over to a point system. I think a point system loses "shinny!" factor, while a collapsed version of the current system will maintain that factor.

There are two ways, furthermore, to even increase this (jackpot!) factor. And you could actually institute both of them at the same time under the 8-frag system.

For one, you could have frags drop in-game. I would have it so that when you killed an Elite unit a Frag symbol would pop up over their head showing you what rarity you got/how many you got. This would give instant gratification. There could also be frags randomly hidden at places on the board (probably where you don't usually go). There could also be a random chance when you killed an enemy that "frag-storm" animation would play (or something similar), signalling that the frag drop rate would be doubled for this run. All these ideas would make the actual playing of the campaigns more fun in the moment, and would encourage players to be more thorough in covering the map and wiping out the enemy.

And secondly, as you mentioned, there could be exclusive runes that randomly drop. Or tokens, or token packs, or even Rune Packs. In these instances I would say the better the prize the less often it would drop, but when it happened it would be even more exciting than getting an Exo frag. These prizes could be dropped at the end of the whole campaign and could be displayed in some pox-themed treasure-chest type display. That would be SXY.

To reitierate, I think all these can combine into the following system:
-Frags are hidden in random locations on campaign maps and will occaisonally pop up as found (rarely rares, never exos).
-When you kill an enemy in the campaigns there is a small chance you will get a frag, which will display over their heads. With most enemies, chances of rare and exo frags would be negligible. When you kill an Elite in a campaign, the chances of a drop are high, and the chances of rares and exos are better (though still, obviously, really low).
-Player Rewards (or whatever it gets renamed to) actually has Runes, Packs, and Tokens that you can trade in your frags for. And your common/uncommons can be traded up or traded in for common/uncommon runes, as opposed to just being completely worthless.
-When you complete a campaign you will get a final treasure chest at the end. This will probably have rare Frags in it, but it COULD have any of the aformentioned sweet, sweet prizes.

I feel this would be, by far, the most exciting system to play campaigns with. Of course the Greens and the players who have a lot of money invested naturally would want the rewards to stay infrequent enough that it did not devalue the existing runes. I am sensitive to this. But we are so far below that threshold now, we could afford to bump up the payoff A LOT.

Another point is that I feel only campaigns should reward you in this way. Campaigns are fun in their own right, but the thing that is most fun about them is the potential for reward. When I bought my first campaign I was still fairly new to PN and naive. I read on the web-page that:
"Campaigns are a new and exciting feature that has just been released to all PoxNora players. Some campaigns will be the perfect way to test your new battlegroup before facing off head-to-head with a live opponent. Others will consist of a series of difficult scenarios against powerful bosses that drop unique rewards when defeated. Most campaigns will be available free to players and can be accessed through the game's lobby. Campaigns purchased through the Campaign Store are generally more engaging and have a higher chance for greater rewards."
I bought my first campaign under the impression that I would get rewarded at the end with at least one Free Rune. That is what the wording implies, to the idealistic newb. After all the hours I have played now I have yet to get enough frags to be able to craft a free pack. So I have not seen any of the reward that I thought I was going to get. Now, I enjoy playing the campaigns, and they might have been worth my money just for the experience, but I feel that they should give rewards more frequently, as we are paying for them to.

By the same token, I think that only campaigns (and only bought ones) should drop all these goodies, and that Ranked Play should not. I enjoy Ranked Play just as much as the next guy. But it is it's own reward, as real people are more fun to play against than robots. It also gives more Avatar XP, which I agree with. But if it were to also give the same level of rewards as the campaigns, I would abandon the campaigns (and you would stop seing my $6 per expansion, :)).

Thanks for reading.

[scrampy]

REALLY great idea

[zorack70]

This is a really great idea, love it :D

[saromon50]

note: The reason this post is hypothetical is because it is a discussion. This post does not mean we are implementing anything stated below in any upcoming expansions, midterms or patches. It is for the purpose of discussion only.



current system:
As many of you know, we have a system in place that allows players to earn fragments through playing campaigns, and these fragments can be used to craft items in the player rewards area. Rewards can be crafted using: Commons, uncommons, rares and exotics (exotics being the ultimate shinny).

Note - all together we have 32 different fragments a player can collect.

__

new system:
What if there was only one type of fragment to collect? When a player plays through a campaign, they would receive a static amount of fragments every time (of course the amount could be dependent on different variables - difficulty is an example).

The player rewards would only cost that one type of fragment. Meaning, instead of a 100 rune pack requiring 4-exotics and 4-commons, they would only cost a set amount... 2000 fragments. (these numbers are just examples.)

note - when i mean one type of fragment, i mean there isn't such a thing as common, uncommon, etc. A fragment will mean... A fragment. :)

pros:
- it is cleaner and is less complicated system. (it is cumbersome to figure out all the different fragments i need to craft and item.)
- players won't have to worry about playing a specific campaign for a specific fragment, for all campaigns will drop the same things.
- players will feel their time is well spent. (there is nothing like playing 300 campaigns and not getting an exotic.)
- no more 2000 uncommon fragments sitting around.

__

i do want to note about the potential loss of the "shinny." if you don't know what the "shinny" is, it is the "omg" factor that happens when a player randomly get something awesome after completing a mission. (exotics played the "shinny.")

there are ways to bring in the "shinny" moment. For example, with the guaranteed drop of the fragments, we could randomly drop a... Rune, 10-pack, etc. I think there is room to recreate the "shinny."

also, i think a points system could be implemented into... Ranked games, too. I think it would be awesome if everyone had the ability to earn fragments and spend them on: Taunts, packs, runes, or whatever else we throw in there.

__

replacing the current fragments:
Hardest part about this system is that people already have many different types of fragments. I personally think it would be easy to automatically update everyone's fragments and convert them into the new system. We would just have to figure out what those conversion numbers would be.


-- end.



remember, this forum is heavily moderated. If you do not possess the ability to post something constructive and on topic, and you do not possess the ability to 'agree to disagree with an open-mind, please refrain from replying in this forum.




poxvega!!!

i absolutly love the idea!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Do it!! Do it!!! Dooo ittt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Sackett]

I still say the issue is the lack of things to craft, not the system itself.

[Rickimaru]

very nice idea! :D

[Terezar]

I agree for a few reasons.

This encourages play as people be less forced to buy campaigns just for player rewards, ad the encourageent in play will bring in new players.

That said with the loss of revenue from the purchased campaigns and the potential for free rune packs, there is a threat of a great drop in revenue for pox nora, as there would be no reason whatsoever to buy packs if you have enough time on your hands (and some players have way way way too much lol)

However as long as the rewards we kept sub standard to what you can buy in the stores there would still be reason to purchase runes and rune packs.

Secondly, it would make obtaining the rewards a little easier as players would not have to collect specific types of fragments and specific rarities for certain rewards. For instance, all I need for a name change token is one rare dragonbur. I have an armies worth of common and uncommon, and after a while people get discouraged if they cannot get the fragment they are looking for.

The proposed idea keeps the SWEET I got something rare aspect while removing the farming aspect.

[redbarret]

I still say the issue is the lack of things to craft, not the system itself.

That true.
Only name, Taunts, packs and is it LE or PE now?

[PoxVega]

Good stuff in here.

Thanks everyone.



POXVEGA!!!

[Arlus]

i love it nice idea. go with it. . .im with ya.

[adino32]

This is a great thread.

I am not sure making frags a type of currency is a good idea if for only to prevent "chinese" farmers.

I think simplifying the frags like someone said to 8 types is best. 4 wrath, 4 prot

Make old runes available as rewards. Commons and uncommons that cost like rare fragments. Or if you guys are really generous uncommon frags for common runes.

Make bronze tokens available as a reward. Like 50 commons for 1 bronze token and 25 uncommons for 1 bronze.

This allows some farming (which imo is needed in every game). Every successful mmo has 2 aspects... adventurers and crafters. Similarly there are groupers and soloists but that does not apply to this game... yet. Allowing people who have a lot of time and not so much money or just that personality type that does not like competition, to farm their way to get more runes.

As I write this I think it you should be thinking more rewards not changing the system.

As to reward for ranking... no...NO. Make the game diverse. Rankers get the prestige of being high rank and the respect of being high rank. Campaigners get the shinys.

Maybe frags in casual play for completing achievements (although this of course would lead to 2 account abuse).

What I really want to see is a betting system in casual play. You create a betting system for runes or frags or happy points... trust me this game will explode. And since all these things are digital and entirely owned by SOET no legal consequences!!!

[adino32]

If you do decide to make a change, give us advance warning will you? (A week or two would be good).

I think everyone is a little tired of sudden changes that seem to appear out of the blue.

cheap shot, but yes needed.

[RSnow]

good lord yes, please. Change the Frag system.

if this happens, I will start buying campaigns again.

[egami]

Here I sit with lots of every exotic fragment except the one I need (poor LE prodigy needs a KF frag) and so many rare, uncommon and common frags that my rune manager looks like a slag heap.

Like rune crafter, fragments may need a 2.0. I think your ideas and the others posted here are great. I like the idea of randomly dropping packs but not making them craftable; keep the crafting to non-monetary or LE-type things.

[meff]

I love the idea. Very smart.

As for the lack of "shinny" have a goodie drop rarely and randomly in place of a nora ball. Maybe a x2 points, x3, token, etc. If you get it and win the mission you keep the bonus. Then you'd still have the random "shinny" to look forward to and strive for.

[Konger]

I wouldn't be bothered much either way if you did change the system as you are suggesting.

But I do sort of like the different valued rewards. There's a sense of "YIPPEE!!" when you finally get an exo fragment that is much more fulfilling than, "Yay, I got 10 frags instead of my usual 2!"

I do however despise the different types of fragments, it's just a mess, only certain factions can get certain frags for certain rewards. Makes things annoying, and sloppy, for instance, you need ST fragments to get the UD warcry, "Darkfire consume you!" How does that makes sense? Also, it's annoying to get an exo fragment you'll never need, and can't trade. I have 2 exo frags, but not the only one I need for my Demon Lich, so the other two are worthless to me.

I'd like to see just straight, generic, Common, Uncommon, Rare, and Exo frags, none of this factional BS.

[MaskedLich]

I really like the proposed change--getting fragments of a single variety would be great for that feeling of 'working towards something'. Also, having a 'shinny' like a random pack or rune would be a really exciting possibility and would get people to play even more games!

[Trill1]

Another idea for campaigns is instead of champions the ai spawns dropping nora globes they drop exp globes like +1 exp to that champion i own that picked it up if i win the campaign but of course limiting it to only champions spawned from the ai excluding summons ect.

[Klegg]

Love this idea, as much as I love random things the current system is too varied, I think having one unified fragment type would really help give more purpose and allow people to just play whatever camp they feel comfortable with rather than slogging away at specific ones in the hopes of certain fragments. Of course, there should always be an 'ooh shiny' aspect to keep away they boredom and it adds a carrot to the stick.

[FalconBG]

As an addition to PoxVega ideas !!!

Here is your solution:

1. All campaigns will drop same fragments, but more more difficult one will drop more (1/2/3).
2. Ranked Play will have regular drop, one per battle and Highlander 2 per battle.
2. For the the paid campaigns you will increase the drop with x2 (2/4/6).
3. All rewards will have fragment price, for example:
>> Nameable tokens 50 fragments
>> Taunt tokens type 1 to 5 100 fragments
>> Bronze token 150 fragments
>> Taunt tokens type 5 to 10 200 fragments
>> Silver token 250 fragments
>> Gold tokes 350 fragments
>> Platinum token 450 fragments
>> 10 Rune packs 500 fragments
>> 25 Rune packs 1000 fragments
>> 100 Rune packs 2000 fragments
4. Covering old fragments - common 1:25, uncommon 1:50, rare 1:100, exotic 1:200.

All numbers are figurative and you can place them under discussion or/and voting.

Cheers,
~Falcon~

[Contextual]

As an addition to PoxVega ideas !!!

Here is your solution:

1. All campaigns will drop same fragments, but more more difficult one will drop more (1/2/3).
2. Ranked Play will have regular drop, one per battle and Highlander 2 per battle.
2. For the the paid campaigns you will increase the drop with x2 (2/4/6).
3. All rewards will have fragment price, for example:
>> Nameable tokens 50 fragments
>> Taunt tokens type 1 to 5 100 fragments
>> Bronze token 150 fragments
>> Taunt tokens type 5 to 10 200 fragments
>> Silver token 250 fragments
>> Gold tokes 350 fragments
>> Platinum token 450 fragments
>> 10 Rune packs 500 fragments
>> 25 Rune packs 1000 fragments
>> 100 Rune packs 2000 fragments
4. Covering old fragments - common 1:25, uncommon 1:50, rare 1:100, exotic 1:200.

All numbers are figurative and you can place them under discussion or/and voting.

Cheers,
~Falcon~

Pretty good system you have there, but I think your rewards are still too cheap. If they did it this way there are lots of people like me who would be able to redeem multiple 100 packs (I think I could do about 6). SOE wouldn't like that. Although I think I have spent enough time farming the campaings that I deserve about six 100 packs by now. It might not be too high of a rate for the future of player rewards, but "buying out" all the long-time campaign players would really flood the market. At the same time, I'm definately not advocating that old campaigners have thier frags ignored or devalued in any kind of new system. It's a hard balance to strike. I think the best solution would probably be to do make the packs more expensive and/or add more LE runes that old campaign players could cash in for so they get something valuable ("shinny") without getting tons and tons of runes.

[SaiTaan]

Personally I do like the Rarity and getting different Sides of the coin, fragments. Having to play certain campaigns for certain fragments is fun (for those of us who paid to open all campaigns ). Knowing you are going to get certain types of fragments made that campaign a little more intense, You need that last specific fragment for your Toxic Anuran to become LE. You go into certain campaigns with a specific mentality or specific faction(s) based BG in order to beat it. Pox has a very large Rune base and has made a Big point in having 8 Factions, following Faction "flavours" and having the Good vs Bad sort of basis for the reasons behind warring sides and Named Enemies derived from the Storyline (update the story Please). So if you it were to convert to a numerical equation of what is a Story well, that gives the game a Generic Feel, to just give it back what is essentially a small version of the old Credit system. Mirrored in way too many other games with a "money" system as rewards for Quests. This is a more complex field to play within, the warring Factions should still be represented.

Some players have said they like the system the way it is but suggested the Wrath/Protectorate types, as opposed to all 8 Factions being represented. I think this is a better solution. I do not want to take away the tiny amount of humourous drama you can create in a campaign by say, having Kartch Defend the Nora Glades or Rugolth in the Mountain Pass, whatever. I do not think a Generic 1000 fragments is any more original then calling them Gil and having shops you can visit on your adventure in between sets :P No thanks. I prefer the C/U/R/E (lol looks funny like that) Rarity system as it is now but I agree with a few others that Wrath and Protectorate would be all that is needed. Simple and easy to get used to from he current version. From the posts here and the general consensus I see in the lobbies often. There is a certain intelligence level to the Long Term Pox player. It is a more thought out game, relying on effort, moment to moment thinking, construction of BG's for X contingencies. I do not feel that reducing the system to a simple number is either

A: Following in the nature and preset minds of Pox that it is still a Story with Factions, faction BASED campaigns, Intelligent player base and the established fact that Factions are the Heart and Soul of Pox. Arguments breaking out in the lobby by Zealots of one faction or another, fights Octopi created by siding this champ with Forglar or princess whoever for Ironfist.

Or

B: Giving the player a choice to acquire what he/she needs for their wants and faction(s). Not every player is as crazy as I am and has a complete set and opened all the campaigns. A fair number of players side with Wrath or Protectorate by gravity of interest or monetary reasons keep them from getting everything they want right now. "Owning" only 1-2 factions will make it more difficult to play certain campaigns or get certain fragments due to their restrictions by whatever reason. Giving them Both Wrath and Protectorate choices of Campaigns or rewards will open a little more up to those players who didn't drop a few thousand on this one game.


I said it in A. You have a slightly smarter player who is going to invest in Pox, try to avoid insulting that intelligence or reducing your now very cool Story , faction driven game into something Generic. Pox Nora players like to think (most of the time). Give them more reasons to keep thinking.


On a side note: PoxVega, I am going to be in an infinitesimally small percentage of the player base when I say I appreciate the "'positive reinforcement with variable ratio scheduling'" . If you get a chance to, ask me what I do for a living, you will see why I loved that so much.

[FalconBG]

....
I said it in A. You have a slightly smarter player who is going to invest in Pox, try to avoid insulting that intelligence or reducing your now very cool Story , faction driven game into something Generic. Pox Nora players like to think (most of the time). Give them more reasons to keep thinking.
....


Man, what you are talking about. Investing in Pox, this is no stock exchange, this is a game, etc. meant to be played by kids, not someone with PHD of Economics.

I know few 7-8 year old kids in the neighborhood that play POX, please explain to them how the old system works.

[FalconBG]

Pretty good system you have there, but I think your rewards are still too cheap. If they did it this way there are lots of people like me who would be able to redeem multiple 100 packs (I think I could do about 6). SOE wouldn't like that. Although I think I have spent enough time farming the campaings that I deserve about six 100 packs by now. It might not be too high of a rate for the future of player rewards, but "buying out" all the long-time campaign players would really flood the market. At the same time, I'm definately not advocating that old campaigners have thier frags ignored or devalued in any kind of new system. It's a hard balance to strike. I think the best solution would probably be to do make the packs more expensive and/or add more LE runes that old campaign players could cash in for so they get something valuable ("shinny") without getting tons and tons of runes.

As i said all numbers are figurative, but i do not think 2000 fragments is so small amount for 100 Pack. 2000 Fragments, equals 2000 wined battles at normal and lot more on higher difficulties. For someone players like me with decks from all factions is little bit easier, but imagine someone with only a starter deck and age around 7~10. It may take years to win 2000 battles.

[Duality]

I have to wonder how many people would be arguing the inverse if we had started out with a single point system and were considering switching to a 32 type setup ^_^

I think there's a reason that many games stick with the point/gold/whatever single currency system... It's easy.

I'm confused by your second point though Sai, A. I can understand, even if I don't agree with it, but aren't you suggesting the opposite in B? Part of the problem with the current setup is that it can be impossible for some players to get the frags they want. A single currency system as well as something along the lines of what Burnova suggested would;

A. Allow anyone who has purchased the campaigns (or bought prem, but that seems increasingly unlikely, considering how lame prem has been getting) to get the rewards that they actually want. Since there's no trading of frags if you pull one you don't need... You're screwed.
B. Allow people who HAVE purchased all the campaigns to get other rewards in the form of nifty map drops; thereby keeping some of the "oh, cool rune/whatever from X campaign" (and thus linked to X faction).

[SaiTaan]

Man, what you are talking about. Investing in Pox, this is no stock exchange, this is a game, etc. meant to be played by kids, not someone with PHD of Economics.

I know few 7-8 year old kids in the neighborhood that play POX, please explain to them how the old system works.

Considering the Age Limit to play Pox is 13+ I am concerned to hear 7-8 year olds play it.

[SaiTaan]

I have to wonder how many people would be arguing the inverse if we had started out with a single point system and were considering switching to a 32 type setup ^_^

I think there's a reason that many games stick with the point/gold/whatever single currency system... It's easy.

I'm confused by your second point though Sai, A. I can understand, even if I don't agree with it, but aren't you suggesting the opposite in B? Part of the problem with the current setup is that it can be impossible for some players to get the frags they want. A single currency system as well as something along the lines of what Burnova suggested would;

A. Allow anyone who has purchased the campaigns (or bought prem, but that seems increasingly unlikely, considering how lame prem has been getting) to get the rewards that they actually want. Since there's no trading of frags if you pull one you don't need... You're screwed.
B. Allow people who HAVE purchased all the campaigns to get other rewards in the form of nifty map drops; thereby keeping some of the "oh, cool rune/whatever from X campaign" (and thus linked to X faction).

Well essentially the system I suggested is only 2 Sides Wrath or Protectorate with the 4 Rarity system currently in place. I was assuming the Squids to understand I meant that rewards would be the same for each side just a few differences in things Like making certain champs LE.

B: Wasn't supposed to be the opposite just a different suggestion or opinion.

[Thataway]

Why can't we have both? Yes I want to have and eat my cake.

Why can't we keep the old system in place for all players and create a point/store system for Prem players? Granted you would have to be able to buy/sell frags in the store and add all kinds of goodies to make the store worth while.

I think this would make the prem package much more valuable than it is currently.

[cobra777]

I'm sorry but i did not read all of the posts. i just have a question that i hope someone can answer: If i were to buy a new campaign, would i be able to get the exotic fragments necessary to use in the player rewards for a rune pack (without buying anything extra)?

[Filena]

I like the idea, much better then now.

[RaiddinnRZ]

Currently you can skip going premium and flat out buy Nora Surge for $5 and get exo frags. I don't know if/how/when that will change.

This is in relation to Cobra's post.

Raiddinn

[hughmann]

I am a very casual campaign player. I haven't really touched my fragments because I figure I don't have enough or rare enough fragments. A simpler system would make playing more campaigns a lot more attractive to me. That's all.

[SaiTaan]

I'm sorry but i did not read all of the posts. i just have a question that i hope someone can answer: If i were to buy a new campaign, would i be able to get the exotic fragments necessary to use in the player rewards for a rune pack (without buying anything extra)?

yes

letters

[Duality]

I'm sorry but i did not read all of the posts. i just have a question that i hope someone can answer: If i were to buy a new campaign, would i be able to get the exotic fragments necessary to use in the player rewards for a rune pack (without buying anything extra)?

If PoxVega's hypothetical suggestions went into play then theoretically you could get the various player rewards that currently require an exotic without purchasing a campaign or a premium account. (something you currently can't do) However, it's unlikely that it would be EASY to get said rewards. i.e. You could expect to farm for a LONG time before you would get enough points to get a crafted pack or whatever. Since anything else wouldn't make much business sense in the long term.

[Melvinch]

If PoxVega's hypothetical suggestions went into play then theoretically you could get the various player rewards that currently require an exotic without purchasing a campaign or a premium account. (something you currently can't do) However, it's unlikely that it would be EASY to get said rewards. i.e. You could expect to farm for a LONG time before you would get enough points to get a crafted pack or whatever. Since anything else wouldn't make much business sense in the long term.

The proposed is actually a better system than the current one and should somehow be incorporated as a perk of a premium membership.

I only got my first subscription for the free War Banner plus with the free pack allowance
every month made subscribing to the premuim memership the first time good value.

Am i the only one who thinks the perks we get from having a Premium Membership is lacking. We should do a poll to see how many players actually renew their premium subscription.

Apart from digressing, i think the proposed is a great idea.
It'll attract the sort of players who'd grind just knowing they'll get a sure thing(reward) after all the work.

Infact it makes perfect business sense. Collectible Games are expensive, if a new player(customer) percieves he can more value from pox by investing little and grinding for free packs. It will attract a diff market of players into the game.

A portion of those players will purchase packs to be competitive.

This might be a bad analogy but an example would be World of Warcraft and their "wefare" epics from pvp grinding. They were able to cater to the "casual" player and hold that portion of the market share.

[PoxJunkie]

If this hypothetical fragments thing was re-designed in the said way. I would enjoy playing single player more. I dont like random. I like to know what I have to do to get something. I cant speak for anyone else.

i think you could still have different fragment types, maybe for different hardness settings which allow you to get better/different things.

[haroldkin]

I've been thinking a bit about the possible frag to credit/point system conversion. Most important is to be sure no one with frags feels they have been cheated. The tricky bit is the fact that currently certain rewards require an exotic or rare frag, (packs, 200cp tokens, LE runes), but the purposed point system would allow any point to be used for any reward. This effectively increases the relative worth of all frags.

Nonetheless, I think any conversion system must be based on the most valuable of frags, (exotic), and use the most expensive reward, (packs), as the base for all other conversions. To do otherwise would not fairly credit all the hard work put forth to get those exotic frags.

First, let's have a look at the relative scarcities of the different frags. I've logged quite a few campaign hours, so I'm sure my totals come pretty close to approximating the overall distribution of frags types. The real percentages are not important, as this can be worked out by Pox. What is important are the differences between discreet fragments and a universal credit, and finding some balance between the two. Note that I'm not breaking it down to factions for the sake of simplicity and the assumption that most all factions are equally attainable, (though we know this is likely not the case).

Total frags
Exotic 14
Rare 401
Uncommon 1281
Common 2391

This breaks down to a relative scarcity of 1/28/91/170 (E/R/UC/C). Setting the value of a Common Fragment to 1, we get the following relative values, (rounded to whole numbers for simplicity): 170/6/2/1 (E/R/UC/C).

Presently it requires 4 exotic fragments to craft a 100 pack. We can assume that the price to craft a 100 pack under a credit system would roughly equate to the same amount of playing time as is currently required to get those 4 exotic fragments. Of course, many C/UC/R fragments will also be acquired in that time. On the other hand, the proposed credit system would allow ANY credit to apply towards a 100 pack, which will necessitate the cost of a 100 pack to be significantly higher to offset the ease of accruing credits in Normal mode. One way around this would be to have significantly higher drop rates for Hard and Legendary, making normal drops trivial. There's also the complication with paid vs free campaigns. Presently a player must buy a premium membership or purchase a campaign to have a shot at acquiring exotic fragments. Under a universal credit system players would be able to acquire credits on free campaigns that could be used for any reward. Again, setting the drop rate on free campaigns to a trivial level would help offset this problem.

Back to the conversion... As I stated earlier, any conversion must come close to approximating 4 exotic fragments = 100 Rune Pack. If we set the conversion at 1 Common Fragement = 1 Credit, this would make an Exotic Fragment = 170 Credits and a 100 Rune Pack = 680 Credits. Of course, all those C/UC/R fragments will convert to universal credits, and once done will be usable to craft packs. In my case, my current fragment totals would convert to 9739 credits, which would allow me to craft 14 100 Rune packs. Fantastic! But wait, I can only craft 3 100 Rune packs, (and 2 remaining exotic fragments leftover), with my current exotic fragments, assuming I had the proper distribution of factions, (which I don't). Some balance needs to be struck to offset the value of the exotic fragment and the universality of the credit system. The best option I can propose is to devalue each fragment type a bit to offset the equalization of the conversion to credits. Let's look at the relative values again:

Exotic Fragment 170 credits
Rare Fragment 6 credits
Uncommon Fragment 2 credits
Common Fragment 1 credit

The exotic fragment can be devalued slightly to account for the present difficulty of having to acquire 4 distinct factions. Let's set the conversion at 95% credit value. We'll set the remaining three scarcities at 75% credit value for rare fragments, 50% credit value for uncommon fragments and 30% credit value for common fragments. These are somewhat arbitrary values which try to strike some balance between the universality of the credit system and the effort required to get any fragment. Applying the devaluations will give the following relative values:

Exotic Fragment 161.5 credits
Rare Fragment 4.5 credits
Uncommon Fragment 1 credit
Common Fragment 0.3 credit

At these conversion rates, my current collection of fragments would total 6063.8 credits, which equates to 8 100 Rune packs, (with almost enough credits left over to craft a 9th pack). Eight rune packs is still a lot more than three but appreciably less than fourteen. Of course, if I spend all my credits on packs I wouldn't have any credits left over for anything else, (LE's, 200 CP tokens, etc), and the total amount I can craft would net to less than what I can craft with fragments in the current system. And there is the possibility that someone >might< use their converted exotic credits to craft low value items like taunts. Unlikely, but possible.

Though it may seem unbalanced to allow C/UC/R fragments to ultimately be used to craft packs, Pox should remember that this is a one time conversion. Yes, the players would benefit temporarily, but consider this an act of goodwill for all the grief that players have endured with campaign nerfs and the patience we've all maintained while waiting for updates and additions to the Player Rewards.

Well, what does everyone think? Comments welcome. Let's keep this thread alive.

[RSnow]

Seriously, greens, you need to hear this:

1) Interest in campaigns is currently lacking. Even those of us like me who were very much farmers and members of the campaigns are currently losing interest. Quite simply, the new campaigns are interesting, but they always turn into the same old grind against the AI. I've stopped buying, to put it bluntly.

2) Given that the above is true, you have here an 11 page response, which is rather overwhelming. I'd say the vast majority of people on this thread support the *hypothetical* re-vamping of the Fragment system.

3) 1+1=2. It seems that if you have a business venture which can be expanded on, and if you have the assurance of a rather hefty relative proportion of people who have an interest in seeing this business venture succeed in a different form, it only makes sense to look into it. I believe you should be doing so. Not "oh, we'll look into it." Maybe not even "next expansion"

[Contextual]

I'd like to expand on RSnow's point that an overhaul to the campaign rewards would be a good business venture for SOET.
Though giving out tons of free runes would de-value old runes (and hence lower SOE's profit), I am on board with RSnow in saying that the new campaigns are not worth buying if they do not provide new rewards. There is a large section of the player-base that farms the campaigns more often than they play against real people. It would make SOE a lot of money if they could attract more of this audience and if they could make the new campaigns more rewarding so that folks like myself would continue to buy them.

One suggestion is to code a first-time drop for the completion of a campaign. So when you buy a new campaign and you beat it on normal, you get a special LE rune. When you beat it on hard you get a slightly better LE rune and when you beat it on legendary you get a great LE rune. So you could end up with a cycle of 3 LEs, all with abilities on the same theme. For example, take the Euan campaign. Say at the end of the normal campaign you get a "shinny" new LE rune: a construct called a Walker golem, which has Leap and Clear, but kind of bad stats. Then at the end of the hard campaign you get another "shinny" LE: another construct named the Shield golem, which has Block and beastly defense, but low speed and not great stats otherwise. At the end of the legendary campaign, though, you get an awesome rune: the Greybeard Striker, a solid melee dwarf with a "Chop" attack that works like Faultbreaker's "Tectonic Pulse," attacking all units in a line 2-3 spaces long. The Greybeard also has the Assemble ability (like the Moga Assault Team) when he is near the Shield golem and Walker golem. The three units then form into a Voltron-machine called "Massive Automaton" that has awesome stats (most notably, about 80 hp), Block, Clear, Multiattack, and Chop. This new God-unit wouldn't be OP because of how much time, luck, and Nora it would take to set up. It's abilities also are not comparable to any of the titans. Still, it would be an epic powerhouse, and hence people would be excited to play it. This would make the Euan campaign a much more appealing investment to campaigners as well as Ranked-only kind of players, just for the trade value of this three-rune combo. While ostensibly the 3 runes' value would be $4,on the trader they would (taken together) be worth about as much as a low-tier Exo, I would say. And since the players that actually want the rune can only get 1 set of it from the campaign, they would always want to trade for a second set. Since this would be a one-time drop it wouldn't make farming a real danger to SOE, but it would give great incentive for players to purchase and play that campaign. And you could do the same with other buy-only campaigns, and, especially, with future ones.

A second suggestion for drawing in more campaign players (and making more money) is to re-vamp the Premium accounts in the following fashion:
Make 3 kings of Premium accounts: "Campaigner" premie, "Competitive" premie, and "Combined" premie.
The Campaigner premie would include a starter BG (for players just coming in), access to all the premium campaigns, the $3.00 monthly credit (not pack allowance) that they can spend, usually on the new campaigns, access to the rune crafter/player rewards functions (which should be overhauled to actually be some good), and the anti-idle/DC protection that gets pimped in the current Premie webpage.
The Competitive premie would incluce a starter BG, one free Avatar, one free Warbanner, the discount to the single rune store (which you might want to buff, if you want to sell more), the 20% avatar exp bonus, and the anti-idle/DC protection.
Instead of $48.00 for a year, the campaigner/competitive premies would only be about $35. The combined would be about $50. Combined, obviously, would give you all the benefits of both campaign types. All current subscription holders would have their subscriptions treated like "combined" until they ran out. This would give us a little bonus, as we would have a free starter and a free avatar coming to us (as well as the $3 credit being put back the old way and the player rewards hopefully getting better). I feel that we deserve this much for our money, though, as most sub holders are regretful they spent their money (now that we don't get into beta, etc.).
But I think this will make SOE money because new players can get all the tools they need to start playing in one place and not feel like they are getting milked to death:
"It's totally free!" "Just kidding, you need to pay for runes if you want them to be any good." "Oh, and if you want to be like all the cool kids you have to pay $10 for the avatar." "Oh, and if you want to be competetive you have to pay $15 for a warbanner," "And lastly, especially if you play UD: "Good luck finding Harbs."
Putting all the "start-up" for competetive players in one subscription would be smart, even if you get less money from them up-front, as I'm sure they will stick around to play your awesome game, and they will always need to dish money for more new runes.
The campaigners, meanwhile, could get a much more rewarding experience for less money, which will keep them sticking around for more. And they will also buy runes (though maybe not as many), because you need good BGs to be able to beat these campaigns on legendary. And you want to beat them on Legendary so you can get good rewards.

[snow1wolf]

it is an interesting idea but making craftable packs easier to get would drop the value of the runes for players who bought them in the first place. Also it will inevitably lead to players playing just one single campaign over and over. The particular campaign that gives the highest payout and takes the least amount of time to buzz through. This would be a rather negative move. Now at least we have people having to come up with a deck for each type of fragment they need.

[Duality]

it is an interesting idea but making craftable packs easier to get would drop the value of the runes for players who bought them in the first place. Also it will inevitably lead to players playing just one single campaign over and over. The particular campaign that gives the highest payout and takes the least amount of time to buzz through. This would be a rather negative move. Now at least we have people having to come up with a deck for each type of fragment they need.

Not really. This is what people do now, they play NS over and over since it can drop all frag types. There's no real need to play other campaigns unless you want to. (though, Elements kind of maybe drops all types, so you can farm that as well)

[Ragic]

Not really. This is what people do now, they play NS over and over since it can drop all frag types. There's no real need to play other campaigns unless you want to. (though, Elements kind of maybe drops all types, so you can farm that as well)

it was a mistake to let nora surge drop all fragment types.

[mino165]

I think this idea is awsome.

It wouldnt be a waste of time for alot of people and for it would be easier and more organized

[Yobanchi]

I call good show on simplifying the fragments down to prot and wrath instead of each faction having a run on each rarity.

I also say kudos to the idea of having fragments that can be collected in game that is added as a bonus to your frag prize at the end if completed.

The premium rune drop can be cool as well.


Another issue I think is valid is that we need more fragment 'sinks' in the player rewards section. This is only a matter of time though since there is a LOT of ideas that can be implemented, stuff like evil aura esque tokens, one time tokens for frag bonus boost %, tokens for one time champ/avatar experience % boosts. Etc...


BONUS

Suggestion for nameable tokens. I understand why it was made so that others can not see them. However, a good compromise would be to make it so that you could see the (player name change) ONLY in the prompt When using taunts.

This way you have...
1) New players able to see normal names on runes at all times.
2) Players able to see cool names of champions ONLY through/when taunting.
3) Increases value of taunts on champions.

[Novalith]

This would be excellent. I have not browsed the ideas posted above, but I am ALL for simplification. Have it it sirs.

[Duality]

it was a mistake to let nora surge drop all fragment types.

Maybe. Depends on what exactly you are expecting out of the campaigns. However, since the Elements campaigns (if you buy both) also drop all frag types.....

People gravitate towards what is the easiest; if something like Burnova's idea was implemented, there would actually be a reason not only to play ALL the campaigns, but to PLAY them and not just speed through. To me, that seems like the best idea.

I have to say, if there were campaign specific runes that rarely dropped on each map, you can bet I'd drop speed runs (the only way I play at the moment, if I can't do a campaign quickly, I don't do it) in a second and kill EVERYTHING (which is slow as hell) to improve the odds of getting some cool, rare rune. This I think, is a good piece of the current problem. There's NO reason (currently) not to just speed through the easiest campaign possible looking for exo frags. Anything else is either CP'ing a BG or a big fat waste of time.

Anyway. It seems clear that the majority of people favor this. ^_^ *hope hope hope hope*

[HawkFain]

Thanks for everyone's responses. We're closing this thread for the time being, and will reopen if we feel it's necessary.