My take on Nora Cows + Retreat

[Talinos]

Okay, first of all, thanks are due to Sokolov as always for putting in the grunt work with the math.

Here are a couple minor mistakes that will slightly alter the outcome of his efficiency table:

1. Warbanner gives 4 nora refund each time the cow is deployed. I dont think this was accounted for, and since retreat allows the cow to be deployed more often, you are going to get that 4 nora refund more than without a retreat.

2. This is the main and most important point. The build he used was the 44 nora, 75 health build. The build of nora cow I use is the 47 nora, 66 base health (81 health with banner + bonus) build. This allows use of 8 charges of the cow before having to use retreat, which means an extra round of 15 nora plus another 1 nora from casting the retreat spell.

Now, that said, I still dont think retreat is at all a good idea for nora cow, and I generally consider it to be a much more expensive and much less effective version of sacrifice. Just wanted to point out that it is slightly more efficient than Sokolov's chart indicated.

[Radial]

That's the cow build I run also.

[sokolov]

The build I was using was actually the 45 nora 62 health (72 with Bonus) option.

But yea, the warbanner was not considered, and definitely helps some, though the extra charge you get is offset by the fact that the non-Retreat Cow gets an extra charge also.

You also get around 4 extra nora due to the Warbanner's on deploy return per "cycle," with the Retreat + Cow letting you play the Beast approximately twice as often.

[sokolov]

http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/2070/beast2as5.jpg

Here's the new chart using the Warbanner build. Again, possible mistakes, but the general idea should be accurate. You actually look to be at a decent advantage at Round 18, though by then most games are over and you are still behind between rounds 8 to 14 unfortunately.

The round 18 advantage number is pretty large, but that's primarily because the Beast alone side is deploying that turn.

On the whole, either way, I'd actually be willing to call it a disadvantage to use Retreat on the Beast, as you are trading a significant nora deficit during the crucial rounds for a minor benefit over the course of a typical game.

~

Anyway, now the chart is more complete, thanks Talinos =D

[goldmonkee]

Thanks for the chart/math. Even worse for it is the rune slot...even if the #'s were better, it wouldn't be worth it when you're talking about dropping Ice Storm/Deep Freeze/Gale Force/Cleansing Storm/Shard for it.

[theDVS1]

I don't like your sig Gold, it makes me think about "stuff". I don't like thinking about "stuff".

[goldmonkee]

I don't like your sig Gold, it makes me think about "stuff". I don't like thinking about "stuff".

I changed it just for you.

[theDVS1]

hahah thanks : P

[critter42]

I changed it just for you.

Who is John Galt?

[zz1000zz]

This topic was brought up in another thread, and since I discussed my opinion about this in it, I decided to post here as well. My comments: http://forums.poxnora.com/showpost.php?p=201898&postcount=4

In that topic, I mentioned a couple errors but did not give details. I figured I probably ought to do that here, even though none of them are particularly important. The first one is not necessarily an error, but it certainly could be made better for clarity. The first line of the chart shows the nora amounts after one use of Power Store. The first turn a Nora Beast is out, it will not be able to use Power Store. It would be clearer to show one more round at the start of this chart.

The second issue is actually just the first repeated. When the charts show the Nora Beasts redeployed, it does not take a round to wait before having Power Store used. This error actually matters, since the one side of the chart has more deploys than the other.

The third issue is that nora globes were not considered.

All in all, the charts are pretty good at demonstrating the point. However, as I explained in the other topic, the analysis actually misses a serious point.

[Remni]

Good chart and all.. but I think people miss the uses that Retreat has outside of just Nora Beast. Recruiters being the big one, with Snowcats staying in play when the Recruiter leaves, only to add more as he returns.

And in a weird way it works for Phoenix as well. Drop a DF3 Phoenix, Retreat it, then replay it in the same turn (because of Immortal) for a global 24 hp heal. That only works in desperate times of course, but it does work.

[Rodin]

Good chart and all.. but I think people miss the uses that Retreat has outside of just Nora Beast. Recruiters being the big one, with Snowcats staying in play when the Recruiter leaves, only to add more as he returns.

And in a weird way it works for Phoenix as well. Drop a DF3 Phoenix, Retreat it, then replay it in the same turn (because of Immortal) for a global 24 hp heal. That only works in desperate times of course, but it does work.

The problem is still the runeslot. What do you drop for a Retreat that is worth losing the other spell?

[Remni]

The problem is still the runeslot. What do you drop for a Retreat that is worth losing the other spell?

That depends on what else you're running altogether. I run a Beast/Cat build that relies on Retreat heavily.

[sokolov]

It is true that Retreat has other uses, especially now that the Recruiter is around (previously, it would have been primarily Gnark and the Titan it was used for). But I think most of us would agree that including a Retreat in your build to use with a Nora Beast is not a good idea.

[blunteee]

I'm going to need the hard facts on why the glacial titan trumps the glacial rhino, or vice versa. I'm going to need numbers.

[Hiyashi]

I don't really believe that retreat/recruiter is a good combination. Retreating a kittyguy is going to cost you whole 8 nora. (74 nora kittyguy.) Basically you could treat your retreat as a third kittyguy which is going to cost you ~10hp (the attack that your opponent won't spend on finishing your lonx off) and 82 nora. And while cats are great and stuff, I don't think they are that great.

It is okay for the gnark and titan, but I still wouldn't run it.

*bumps the other thread*

[sokolov]

I'm going to need the hard facts on why the glacial titan trumps the glacial rhino, or vice versa. I'm going to need numbers.

Titan = 1, Rhino = 0
1 > 0, therefore, Titan > Rhino

[Moodudu]

Do not divide a Titan by a Rhino.

[sokolov]

hehe, good one, moo

Error: Divide by Rhino!

[Remni]

There's that whole deductive reasoning thing again..