Theme Adjustments #1 - Wings and Hyaenids

Some good ideas from @RedScarlet. Perhaps reconfigure Serf to be on the Djinn, and change it up to grant a conditional Judgement type ability.

 

The big drawback with sigils is that is forces a phalanx style buff on a mobile hit and run based theme. The best fix for this would be to increase the range of effect for sigils but reduce the number of extra targets affected. A secondary problem is the some abilities are prohibitive to use in a phalanx such as the Amber sigil.

I propose something more like these: (assuming the New boost system is implemented)

Obsidion sigil: this champion is flying. when a friendly champ comes into play this champ gains assault for 6 turns. if that champ has a sigil ability this champ also gains boost damage 2.

Ivory sigil: this champ is flying. When a friendly champ comes into play this champ gains illuminate for 6 turns. If that champ has a sigil ability then this champ also gains
Boost defence 2.

Platinum sigil: this champ is flying. When a friendly champ comes into play this champ gains impairing vision for 6 turns. If that champ has a sigil ability then this champ also gains improve range.

Amethyst sigil: this champ is flying. When a friendly champ comes into play this champ gains vaporize for 6 turns. If that champ has a sigil ability then this champ also gains sustain: vaporize.

Scarlet sigil: this champ is flying. When a friendly champ comes into play this champ gains attack fire for 6 turns. If that champ has a sigil ability then this champ also gains sustain: flame strike.

Amber sigil: this champ is flying. When a friendly champ comes into play this champ gains grant: magic aura for 6 turns. If that champ has a sigil ability then this champ also gains grant: evasive.

Basically this format allows for a generic individual buff coupled with a theme dependant secondary buff. Taking into consideration a looser mobile skirmish play style, the grant/sustain approach coupled with your newer version of boost allows for a more simple uncluttered mobile design that can be more easily balanced by adjusting CDs and ap costs for the sigil dependant versions of these abilities.

 

- Yeah everything doesn't have to be on top of each other...and with possible faction bonus tweaks...this will give more interesting gameplay options other then spamming champs and marching them in a mob at the enemies face. Leave that to the dorfs/constructs

 

Hyaenid Master:X (This champion has Flight. Friendly Hyaenid champions within 5 spaces gains +5HP, +1DMG, +1MAXRNG. If there are 2 or more friendly Hyaenids affected, this champion gains Sustain: Death Sentence)

What about that? Djinns can make their Nid devotees into a mini Nid Executioners.

*Death sentence: nid executioner's original skill. Kinda wasteful if you just let it laying around right, might as well

Or if its seems too cramp for one keyword, destroy the last clause on that new keyword, and just give each Djinn "Sustain: Death Sentence". That's essentially 2 new keyword. So the whole theme's downfall is its vulnerability to distract.

 

I think part of that runs counter to the trimming down of boosts Sok is promoting elsewhere. Additionally, that's a complicated mechanic.

What if Judgment gained ranks - 3 damage/effect per rank - and the Djinn gained a rank of Judgement for each Hyaenid within 5 spaces? Or just make it a conditional trigger. I like the idea of the hyaenid frenzy-ing on something, then the Djinn coming in and smiting it.

 

Nids are fine for me with Debuff module only. Serf to Djinn are not that good (trust me) and the only Djinn I run is Ifrit due to 7spd + Physical Imunnity. So, maybe make something to them that make more sense with the Nids Debuff module, like applying more debuffs. Surge Nid for every Djinn could be good too, but need to be placed carefully to not make some of them shoebox while others become much better.
The great thing about Nids always have been the Debuff Module, so work on this, and then make some changes to Djins, since they lack something to be really usefull in this theme.

 

I do not want to be that guy again, but Hyaenid or "wings" will never be "themes", they do not have anything special. Just because you give them the same name and abilities do not make them a theme.

A theme is something like stitched because the bring something unique to the picture, the "blood" theme in UD, at one point skeeziks were a theme (centered around the rioter), deamons were a theme (unfortunately centered around DEP and demn shield.. I miss those days).

You will never make wings and hyaenids a theme, I will give you am example: how much time have you wasted trying to make draksars a theme, you pushed champs / spells / equip. Tell me how many people actually play them? None. That is because in the end they are just some random champs put together.

Also I dislike this "direct" theme style, when I say direct I refer to the fact that you give an ability to all champs so that they work well together.

I would prefer something like:
- Axeman + the contruct which gives equipment
- drunks which can equip other champs and make them better (or worse)
- things that die and make you stronger
This I would name as indirect themes. It makes the player think how runes interact (kind of like how iPox is doing, but on a simpler scale) and not just say "this is how it is meant to be played, play it like this".

This is how you bring variety to this game.

 

Ok, so I've been working on my Sigil theme suggestion both as a whole and for the individual champions and I'm not ready to share it quite yet, but I do need to point out something I found out in the process:

I've been trying to rework Emerald Wing and I have a very good idea of how I want to do it. But as I was trying to get it to be cheaper, I stripped it of everything except base stats and I found out the base cost is 55 nora. Ok.
I then looked for the exact same stat template except as 4-5 range instead of 3-5. I found Barbarian Exemplar, with a base cost of 38! Quite the cost difference that access to range 3 is making. I proceeded to place the abilities I had in mind on this base and I found out I could just keep piling high cost abilities and the thing wouldn't even reach 70 nora. And believe me, it was worth more. So I looked for another template, just to check.
Platinum Wing has the exact same stat template as Barbarian Exemplar except -1 damage. Its base cost is 52 nora.

So:

• 10 dmg at 3-5 range (electric) --> 55 nora
• 10 dmg at 4-5 range (physical) --> 38 nora
• 9 dmg at 4-5 range (physical) --> 52 nora

Notice the weirdness? 1 less damage and 1 less range brings it down 3 nora. 1 less range brings it down 17 nora.

Suspected problems:
1) Barbarian Exemplar has a negative cost modifier applied or both Platinum and Emerald have a positive modifier.
2) Range in general is costed weirdly. 1 damage is worth ~2 nora, so access to range 3 would cost ~1 nora. And we've all noticed the weirdish range templates popping up post revamp (2-3, 4-5, 5-6). Now, I know range's cost scales with squares covered, but something still feels off, idk.

Anyway, I only see 2 ways for me to proceed: either someone tells me which templates have which correct cost, or I just ignore it and go for gut feeling (gonna go with gut for now).

 

Honestly i think the wings would be perfectly fine if the sigil abilities just lasted longer. If that doesn't work what if they had more of a long term effect like skeezick or devotee or barbarians. Example cerulean sigil what if when it died it gave the nearest sigil champ cerulean sigil for double amount of turns or for the whole game ? When the champ gets the new sigil ability it re-activates for the champs around it like when the first champ was summoned ?

 

I really like the idea of Djinn having grant abilities that only affect other elementals, Hyaenid, or both.

Would it be more synergistic for a short term change for them to be able to grant abilities such as burn, scour, rend, etc. because it allows more conditions to be spread?

Also, I like the idea of spreading judgement type effects around but could they possibly be abilities specific for the Djinn for a long-term change?

I know we want to lower complexity creep but I feel if it's an ability specifically for each Djinn and they are tied to each other it may be easier to understand.

For example, this is Judgement now: Champions within 3 spaces of this champion are Cleansed. For each condition removed this way, the affected champion loses 10 HP. It is CD 3, AP 3.

Could it possibly some like --- Judgement of the Ifrit - Target unit is cleansed. For each condition removed this way, the affected champion loses X HP (or takes X fire damage) and it's max range is set to 1 for X turns. (the flavor is smoke/fire burning the eyes, etc.)

Again, very similar to Judgement and so much so that it may not even be worth considering. But I feel like part of their game play is to stall with debuffs and then hit the Judgement when it means an executing blow, not just to be able to pop it every turn from many sources for burst loss of life.

I feel Hyaenids are meant to play like control - I think abilities like the one suggested (though I'm sure someone could come up with a better ability, that was just to show an example of what I meant) could add a control factor to the loss of life. I'd enjoy it that way. It fits flavor wise for me because then it feels like every Djinn is handing out it's own brand of justice.

 

Making the trigger 'nids within 5 spaces would force Nids to be cramped together. And if some are debuffed, chances are theyre going to take damage too.

Judgement 1/2/3 (AP: 3, CD: 3, Champions within 3 spaces of this champion are cleansed. For each condition removed this way, the affected champions loses 4/7/10HP)
[3 nora/6 nora/9 nora]

Hyaenid Master (This champion has Flight. Friendly Hyaenid champions within 5 spaces gains +1 MAXRNG. For each Hyaenids affected, this champion gains an additional rank of Judgment)

Don't know why but I still feel that Judgement clause that forces our own units to clump will only result in our own disadvantage. Same like the current Serf to the Djinn that limits positioning and is semi disadvantages via Careless.

The only option to help the theme imo:

(1) Nids getting APgen or more mobility through Djinns

(2) Either do a Death Sentence, or a ranged single target Judgement that is a Djinn-ability. This way, you don't have to clump ur units, or alternatively you can easily gib ur opponent via single target judgement (ranged death sentence 1-4), so you only have to spend AP on the Djinn while your Nids can take position to establish a good threat range

OR keep your idea on ranked Judgement but its a single target ranged 3/5/7 damage per debuff/Hyaenid within 5 spaces. That seems more balanced.

(3) Sustain/Grant abilities for flavor

(4) or more simply Passive static ability for Djinn to deal extra damage based on debuffs on opponent (Debuff-Exploit ability)

 

It's a good point about positioning. Not sure how to rectify that. I'd shy away from some range increase: I think themes should stick to their core idea and not extend beyond that, at least on their defining ability. Why need there be a boost like that? I think without a direct mechanical or aesthetic reason for a design choice, that choice should be forgone.

 

If you want to buff Hyaenids do it right, just lower the cost of dog pile by 1-2 nora because its not really that great an ability! If you really want to help out executioner give him defiling aura.

 

defiling aura would be crazy awesome for this theme

 

Warning: it's gonna be a long post.

Ok, so my suggestion for the Sigil Wing theme is mostly done. I strongly urge anyone who reads through it to also pay attention to the more minute ability shifts and stat changes. There are places where I looked at stuff into great detail and if something is off, it's due to lack of skill, not lack of attention.

There are many elements that I borrowed from other people in this thread and the IS forum, because they've been quite on point and I agreed with them. @Baskitkase 's posts provided a good starting place and I was arriving at similar conclusions as @sassquatch , so I made use of parts of his suggestion.


Introduction/Analysis/Thought process:

It seems that the main reason the Sigil theme doesn't play out as intended is because all of its powerups come from clumping together to receive the full Sigil buff, while the theme itself was intended to rely upon positioning and flexibility.
This discrepancy is aggravated by 2 things:
1) they are also beasts, which further incentivises the player to use them as a phalanx to make use of the Beast Boosters
2) they do not actually have all the proper tools to act as they were intended; some of them just don't have some needed abilities, others that do are unusable (Emerald Wing)

My goal was to shift them toward their intended playstyle and almost completely away from this standard type of phalanx. The idea is to have the "right Griffon at the right place and the right Sigil at the right time". The main plan is to allow them to adapt to situations they have to deal with (through varied champions and Sigil flexibility) until they reach a point where they can power turn. They can either separate some key units to target them, or attack en mass if they are enough on the field.

The first thing that should be done (and I know this is a big thing) is removing the Beast race. As long as that is in place, they're gonna keep getting pushed back towards what they are now or will be held back by needing to always account for access to Beast-related buffs. For flavor reasons they can't just be Dwarves, so the addition of Race: Griffon seems best.

Next I focused on changing the Sigil abilities themselves. Their sigil will be weaker/of a lower duration than the permanent ability, but with increased flexibility in its use. There is way less reliance on area buffs than before. Note that I have been pretty "pessimistic" with the costing of the Sigil abilities, even though I've weakened them. They can probably be dropped in price at least in a few places (which allows for overall easier deploy triggering) and/or have their durations increased.

Lastly, I adjusted runes here and there, trying to make sure not to change them too much. Their direct theme synergy (through Sigils) has been somewhat weakened, but the indirect theme power has been increased through synergy of their abilities and roles.


The Runes:

1) Cerulean Wing:
Role: Mobile font runner/harasser with soft CC; can flank/hit & run or set things up in the main engagement.

Champion Stats:
DMG: 10 | SPD: 7 | RNG: 1 | DEF: 1 | HP: 47. (reduced hp by 3)

Champion Abilities:
- Attack: Spear (+0 Nora)
- Cerulean Sigil- This champion gains Entangling Attack for 4 turns when a friendly champion is deployed from the runedock. If that champion has a Sigil ability, this champion also gains Grant: Entangling Attack for 2 turns. (+5/+6)
- Flight (+6)

Upgrade Path 1:
- Entangle (+6)
- Blitz (+8)
- Bold (+8)

Upgrade Path 2:
- Retreat 2 (+6) <-- not sure this one should be available
- Hit and Run (+8)
- Retreat 3 (+10)

• The idea is to give this champion mild CC to allow him to slow down units and move around them. Giving Entangling Attack to others is meant for those cases when you either want to slow down multiple units while your army pulls back slightly (in case it feels overwhelmed for the moment) or to slow units down while in pursuit. So it sort of facilitates kiting around stuff.

2) Amber Wing:
Role: Melee tank with anti-range; can be built as a damage soaker/aggro pull or can be shifted toward regenerating and dealing aura damage.

Champion Stats:
DMG: 9 | SPD: 6 | RNG: 1 | DEF: 2 | HP: 49

Champion Abilities:
- Attack: Physical (+0 Nora)
- Amber Sigil- This champion gains Arrow Eater for 4 turns when a friendly champion is deployed from the runedock. If that champion has a Sigil ability, this champion also gains Grant: Evasive for 2 turns. (+10)
- Flight (+6)
- Magical Aura 2 (+4)

Upgrade Path 1:
- Bodyguard (+5)
- Antagonize (+6) <-- maybe Divert instead?
- Magic Acolyte (+10)

Upgrade Path 2:
- Grant: Magical Aura (+8)

3) Amethyst Wing:

• Unchanged, except for:

"- Amber Sigil- This champion gains Vaporize for 4 turns when a friendly champion is deployed from the runedock. If that champion has a Sigil ability, this champion also gains Sustain: Vaporize. (+7/+8)"

4) Obsidian Wing:
Role: He is the iconic unit of the Sigil theme. He is meant to be a costy tanky beater with the ability to gain damage (by sacrificing some HP or using extra AP); a crucial part of his lead role is the ability to get closer to a champion and grapple/stun it, allowing a run-by or setting up a follow-up attack.
Version 1:

Champion Stats:
DMG: 10 | SPD: 6 | RNG: 1-2 | DEF: 2 | HP: 52 (increased range to 1-2)

Champion Abilities:
- Attack: Physical (+0 Nora)
- Obsidian Sigil- This champion gains Opportunistic Assault for 4 turns when a friendly champion is deployed from the runedock. If that champion has a Sigil ability, this champion also gains Commander 2 for 4 turns. (+4)
- Flight (+6)
- Grappling Hook (+5)
- Stun (+6)

Upgrade Path 1:
- Tough 1 (+5)
- Tough 2 (+10)
- Tough 3 (+15)

Upgrade Path 2:
- Execute (+4)
- Enrage 3 (+6)
- Hostile (+8)

• I've added Stun to base because I really think that is important for his role and didn't want him to sacrifice power for access to it, but rather sacrifice other things. As the point man/leading unit it is his job to get to a unit and keep it there, opening up the path for the rest, or allowing a focus on the target.
• The increase to range 1-2 along with Improve Range from Platinum Wing would allow for a 3-range Stun, which is a really neat range for this ability. It has always proven iffy on 'Range 1 with 6 Speed'.

• These changes have driven the cost up. I considered replacing Flight with Running Start, esp because his role wouldn't require him to be flying all the time. I didn't want to "cheat" however, the cost reduction seemed too good considering he would still have some flight.

Version 2:

• The same as Version 1, except it loses Stun and the Sigil now grants Stun rather than Opportunistic Assault. The Sigil would also grant Sustain: Stun in the second clause (though that might be too clunky along with Commander 2). This version is moreso an expression of a personal preference. I'd like a Striker/Stunner more than a Grappler. Reduces the cost somewhat as well.

 

5) Wild Griffin:
Role: secondary option font runner; also high damage melee unit with the ability to dash in and out of combat, allowing him to keep his fragile self out of harm's way somewhat; can however be geared toward resisting some damage via Reflexes.

Champion Stats:
DMG: 11 | SPD: 7 | RNG: 1 | DEF: 0 | HP: 44 <-- I highly recommend adding ~2 HP to it (for the equivalent nora bump)

Champion Abilities:
- Attack: Physical (+0 Nora)
- Honorary Sigil (+0)
- Flight (+6)
- Phantom Dash (+8)

Upgrade Path 1:
- Aerial Supremacy (+7)
- Brutality (+8)
- Multiattack (+8)

Upgrade Path 2:
- Lift (+2)
- Reflexes 2 (+6)
- Hit and Run (+8)

• This one just needed something to allow him to play his role. The ability to "swoop in and then fly away" makes sense.

6) Emerald Wing:
Role: Positional Support and ranged damage dealer; fragile, handle with care.

Champion Stats:
DMG: 9 | SPD: 6 | RNG: 4-5 | DEF: 0 | HP: 44/45 <-- notice the stat changes

Champion Abilities:
- Attack: Electricity (+0 Nora)
- Emerald Sigil- This champion gains Teleport 1 for 4 turns when a friendly champion is deployed from the runedock. If that champion has a Sigil ability, this champion also gains Grant: Teleport for 2 turns. (+6)
- Flight (+6)
- Exertion 2 (+6)
- Easy Target (-10) <-- could be replaced by Defenseless if it seems like a better idea

Upgrade Path 1:
- Chain Lightning (+7)
- Telekinetic Thrust (+8)
- Gale (+15)

Upgrade Path 2:
- Swap 2 (+4)
- Swap 3 (+6)

• This is the champion I've spent the most time on, because it is a central unit for the theme allowing champions to be where they need to be.

• There has never been a champion on which Gale would be cooler than on this one! It fits absolutely great flavor wise and it is intended to help the theme with one crucial aspect: breaking up an enemy formation/making a path to allow others to engage/move in on the intended target (any other use is secondary and I made sure Sigil Wings don't have much easy access to Ground; side note: chasms should be changed from insta-death to just damage and a status effect). However, as far as I'm concerned and strictly from a gameplay perspective, Sustain: Crushing Charge (or any way to give Crushing Charge) works in this slot too.

• Chain Lightning is the cheaper upgrade that also gives him back dmg dealing capability.

7) Ivory Wing:
Role: Support; ranged unit.

Champion Stats:
DMG: 8 | SPD: 6 | RNG: 3-4 | DEF: 1 | HP: 43

Champion Abilities:
- Attack: Magical (+0 Nora)
- Ivory Sigil- This champion gains +2 DEF and Illuminate for 4 turns when a friendly champion is deployed from the runedock. If that champion has a Sigil ability, this champion also gains Sustain: Bold. (+3/+4)
- Flight (+6)

Upgrade Path 1:
- Heal Champion (+3)
- Heal Champion (+6)
- Heal Champion (+9)

Upgrade Path 2:
- Sustain: Blessed or Sustain: Regeneration <-- hopefully this isn't too much Sustain overall
- Soften (+10)

• Giving Bold seems to fit better on this support champion that changes defenses. The idea is that it emboldens units to combat. There is a very minor conflict with Cerulen Wing's Bold upgrade, but Cerulean is intended to spend his time around fonts or away from the main group. Also, it can just target someone else.

• Inspire seems like a good idea for him.

• There isn't much that can compete with Soften, especially not the current upgrades. Right now it is an auto upgrade.

8) Platinum Wing:
Role: Ranged damage dealer with some support; Pin Down/Defensive Strike serve as deterrents to enemy advancement.

Champion Stats:
DMG: 9 | SPD: 6 | RNG: 4-5 | DEF: 1 | HP: 45

Champion Abilities:
- Attack: Physcal (+0 Nora)
- Platinum Sigil- This champion gains +1 MAX RNG and Impairing Feedbak for 4 turns when a friendly champion is deployed from the runedock. If that champion has a Sigil ability, this champion also gains Improve Range for 4 turns. (+4)
- Flight (+6)
- Precision (+6)
- Vulnerability: Fire (-6)

Upgrade Path 1:
- Channel: Damage (+0)
- Piercing Shot 2 (+7)
- Strike (+8)

Upgrade Path 2:
- Stab (+4)
- Pin Down (+8)
- Defensive Strike (+10)

• The cheapest build is at ~66 nora. It is good for getting a cheap ranged Sigil out and providing Improve Range. HOWEVER, the cost is deceptive in that he sacrifices a lot of damage. Channel: Damage gives him the option of raising dmg in an emergency (also works with Defensive Strike). Higher cost builds go through the 70-80 range, providing better damage.

 

9) Scarlet Wing:
Role: Ranged alternate damage dealer.

• I've spent so much time working on the others that I haven't found an exact fix for Scarlet, but it definitely needs a nerf. It provides high damage at a high range and the risk of relying on Opportunity is greatly reduced because it can quite easily stay out of danger. And if it is approached, it has Flamestrike available to mitigate that disadvantage. Suggestion: remove either -1 MAX RNG or Opportunistic with no cost decrease.

• This champion should be more expensive than the cheaper Platinum Wing upgrade builds, because it provides ranged alternate damage as opposed to physical and it shouldn't completely outshine Platinum Wing. It should however be cheaper than the most expensive Platinum Wing builds.

• I also think it should be at roughly the same cost at Griffin Rider, providing more single-attack damage as opposed to Rider's more sustained damage.

10) Griffin Rider:
Role: Ranged damage dealer; ???.

This is again a case of not having focused on him enough. I do however think Upgrade Line 2 is bad.

• While I would love for the Sigils to have some slight AP gen, Tailwind keeps being a problem. It might also cause the Sigils to crutch on Flight too much. The fact that they all fly is already a very big advantage.
• Bastion of Moblity conflicts with the same ability on Griffin Perch. This is a problem in 2 ways:

a) it encourages the player away from Bastion of Mobility on upgrades and towards Tailwind;
b) it means that it makes the deckbuilding choices a bit too easy in my opinion - the player should have to consider their options and decide on one rune or another, sacrificing one advantage to gain another. But this way they're pretty much guaranteed to have Bastion of Mobility in their deck (maybe this is only a problem in my mind?)

11) Wings of Glory: Area Effect 4: Friendly champions gain +2 DMG and +2 DEF for 3 turns. Champions with Flight also gain Swoop for 3 turns. All Sigils within the target area are activated (as if a Sigil champion was deployed). 45-50 cost.
Tough replaced with +DEF as a slight tone down and to make sure it doesn't conflict with Tough on Obsidian W. (doesn't add ranks, it's set at tough 2).


12) Griffin Perch:

• Stays the same. However, I think that the additional duration it gives to Sigils should apply for the first clause AND the second clause of the Sigils. (Maybe it already does.)

Future Development:

One of the weaknesses of this theme is, in my opinion, the fact that they can't deal very well with a swarmy deck. While weaknesses should be there, I think this one could stand to be mitigated somewhat.

Therefore, I'd suggest the addition of an Artillery role Sigil Wing. It would be slow and heavy (give it Running Start, no more automatical flight) and it would be able to deal Physical AoE in an area and make the champions Lumbering. It could also be a Fire/Magic Artillery instead.
In fact, I believe a 1-3 range Sigil Wing with Cleave could also work.

 

I wish to apologize for taking up so much space. I hadn't realized.

 

It's okay, we love you anyway, Sirius.

 

Christ on a crutch, that's a lot to read!