Cactuar Crate - Ronin Edition

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Sokolov, Jan 20, 2015.

Page 43 of 125
  1. Xirone

    Xirone I need me some PIE!

    Hey Sok, what's your take on Unleash Memories? I've been playing a deck with them and it really is nutty how much nora Keeper of Memories can generate. By mid-game, I've been regularly making 60-100 nora from the ability. It is one thing that the champs make a lot of charges but I do think the problem lies with the ability itself. Little strategy, big reward.
     
    Xirone, Feb 13, 2015
    #841
  2. IMAGIRL

    IMAGIRL Forum Royalty

    Molten Cloak. Lets make it the UD version of Cloak of Ice.

    Cloak of Ice: Equipped champion has Ice Armor and Freezing Aura. If equipped on a champion with Attack: Frost, it also gains +1 SPD.

    Current
    Molten Cloak: Equipped champion has Damage Shield: Fire 3, Searing Touch, Trail: Lava, Immunity: Fire, Immunity: Frost and +2 DEF.

    New
    Molten Cloak: Equipped champion has Flame Armor and Flame Aura. If equipped on a champion with Attack: Fire, it also gains +1 SPD.


    Flame Aura: ???
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2015
    IMAGIRL, Feb 13, 2015
    #842
  3. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    We already have Tinder Box:

    Equipped unit gains Fire Acolyte (Whenever a champion takes fire damage this champion is healed for 2 HP (This does not include damage from Charred) and Fire Aura 3 (At the beginning of your opponent's turns, this unit deals 6 Fire damage to each champion within 2 spaces. This damage ignores DEF). If equipped on a champion with Attack - Fire, it also gains +1 SPD.
     
    Sokolov, Feb 13, 2015
    #843
    Etherielin likes this.
  4. IMAGIRL

    IMAGIRL Forum Royalty

    It's different. The only similarity is the +1spd.
     
    IMAGIRL, Feb 13, 2015
    #844
  5. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Well, since I designed both Cloak of Ice and Tinder Box, I will tell you were intended to be the counterparts to each other already.

    But yes, you could have other Fire-based abilities on a Tinder Box template for the Molten Cloak.
     
    Sokolov, Feb 13, 2015
    #845
  6. Pedeguerra

    Pedeguerra I need me some PIE!

    Why not make them trully counterparts? Make Cloak of Ice give Frost Accolyte ! One can hope, right.
     
    Pedeguerra, Feb 13, 2015
    #846
  7. IMAGIRL

    IMAGIRL Forum Royalty

    Interesting. Should Molten Cloak become the UD version of ST's Cloak of Ice. What would Tinderbox become.

    I do like the fact they are similar yet different. Either way your gaining +1 spd, but I thought the differences were enough to make a proper choice.

    Molten Cloak

    Flame Armor
    Flame Aura (Its not Fire Aura, I have no clue what it does yet. Maybe Charred 2, and Defile?)
    +1pd (If you have Attack: Fire)


    Tinder Box

    Fire Acolyte
    Fire Aura
    +1 Spd ( If you have Attack Fire)


    Personally I would like access to both options when making a bg. One seems more Berserker, the other seems more Bruiser.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2015
    IMAGIRL, Feb 13, 2015
    #847
  8. IMAGIRL

    IMAGIRL Forum Royalty

    My intentions were to make it Grimlic's equip of sorts. Similar to Chillshard. But I got side tracked by Cloak of Ice. Honestly, I wouldnt mind a Frost Acolyte equip. But not on Cloak of Ice. Price hike much? I am fairly certain that is the only reason Tinder is 45 Nora.
     
    IMAGIRL, Feb 13, 2015
    #848
  9. MovnTarget

    MovnTarget Forum Royalty

    I believe the removal of upgrades was for swarm summons.

    At least I think that was what happened with the summon changes.
     
    MovnTarget, Feb 14, 2015
    #849
  10. MovnTarget

    MovnTarget Forum Royalty

    I believe everyone hated pets, so pets got nerfed. Then everyone hated swarms, so the got nerfed, etc.
     
    MovnTarget, Feb 14, 2015
    #850
    SPiEkY likes this.
  11. Ujelly

    Ujelly I need me some PIE!

    I like them with upgrades I think it makes them cooler
     
    Ujelly, Feb 14, 2015
    #851
  12. Pedeguerra

    Pedeguerra I need me some PIE!

    True.
    Also, still waiting for that Wake the Dead change to spawn summons.
     
    Pedeguerra, Feb 14, 2015
    #852
    SPiEkY likes this.
  13. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Summons having upgrades are a symptom of the system which has the following 2 properties:
    • Upgrades are REQUIRED to be listed
      • This isn't strictly true, but can cause issues/bugs if not listed in some instances
    • ALL champions have upgrades, even at Level 1 (i.e. default upgrades)
    Thus, even Level 1 Summoned units has default upgrades. Note that both of these were also true pre-revamp.

    However, this only applies to abilities and effects that deploy an actual, database-referenced champion, such as the Rusty Firecase from Chuck Firecase.

    Many older deploy effects such as the Summon Imp ability, isn't summoning a real champ at all. It's using the template from a real champ, and applying modifications to it. In these cases, the summoned unit may be assigned different stats and even abilities. In other words, what it has are hard-coded into the ability logic.

    This type of implementation is being phased out in favor of summoning actual champions listed in the database for two reasons:
    • It fixes the interaction with re-deployment effects such as Blink, which can have unintended consequences when used on these "faked" champions
    • Hard-coding values is generally considered bad practice
      • if you are into programming, you will know why
      • a good example of why this is bad is how some summoned units had the old SPD/AP system after the original SPD revamp, so we had summoned units with 11 SPD (which is equivalent to 7 SPD) running around for awhile
    For design, fundamentally, it allows easier access to modifying the summoned champion's capabilities, without having to touch code. It also means such champions can be released to players as LE, so they are available as cool prizes/rewards.

    ~

    I actually don't remember when/if upgrades were being removed from summoned units - but based on what I know (what I typed above), it seems unlikely that were ever a thing. Rather, some abilities were being created that deployed fake champions that, relative to their assumed counterparts, had fewer abilities. Alternatively, other things like Chuck Freeze Bug being changed to summon a different version of the champ, but even in these cases they still have default upgrades.

    In terms of balance, it really doesn't matter if a unit has abilities on base or upgrades as long as the designer is aware of them when it comes down to it. But if every summoned unit has a DB-entry associated with it, it's fairly easy to fiddle with that stuff.

    So in the case of the Myx Drone, if we did want the summoned versions to be weaker, the proper way of doing is to make a copy of the Myx Drone in the database, and start summoning that one instead, rather than artificially changing the way the rules work in terms of champions and upgrades.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2015
    Sokolov, Feb 14, 2015
    #853
    Etherielin and Authyrtyr like this.
  14. Markoth

    Markoth Lord Inquisitor

    Similar to Thor the Boar being summoned by Ayla instead of a regular Boar?
     
    Markoth, Feb 14, 2015
    #854
  15. Authyrtyr

    Authyrtyr The King of Potatoes

    In regards to mandatory upgrades when you say that bugs arise when they aren't there are you not including by just omitting that section of the XML or do you have a NULL ability in the database you can reference?

    In regards to the second point about not hard coding values don't you have to hard code values to define tons of abilities? What's the difference in putting say 80% damage and remove ability 1 & 3 from the summon as values in the ability XML/DB entry?
     
    Authyrtyr, Feb 14, 2015
    #855
  16. Markoth

    Markoth Lord Inquisitor

    Most recent summons from pre-revamp had 4 upgrades of Abash. Or whateverwas the current first ability when listed alphabetically.
     
    Markoth, Feb 14, 2015
    #856
  17. claydude5

    claydude5 The King of Potatoes

    Arrow Eater is 14 nora

    Elusive is 15 nora


    Why?
     
    claydude5, Feb 14, 2015
    #857
  18. Nea

    Nea I need me some PIE!

    Elusive cancels non-damaging attacks, including loss of life, Arrow Eater doesn't.
     
    Nea, Feb 14, 2015
    #858
  19. Atherhog

    Atherhog I need me some PIE!

    but can be bypassed with precision, arrow eater can not.
     
    Atherhog, Feb 14, 2015
    #859
  20. Nea

    Nea I need me some PIE!

    And yet you can still hex, curse, knockout or trigger a Bounty Hunger on an Arrow Eater (I bet I'm missing some attacks that trigger an effect on non-damaging successful attack). Different abilities with different counters have (very slightly) different costs. Most of the differences are pretty incomparable, so the judgement on the costing is going to be rather subjective.
     
    Nea, Feb 14, 2015
    #860
    SPiEkY likes this.
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