it's not a suggestion to remove CP system, but upgrade system in general. making champions to have less and less abilities per instance is becoming something real according to some statements of Owls. removing upgrades would mean less abilities per champion and bigger focus on roles. there are tons of champions you could consider having competitive upgrades and it's nice and stuff. but there are also tons of champions having auto upgrades so it doesn't add anything. on top of that, upgrades usually mean having no clear role. like it allows you to customize, but even having competitive lineup doesn't actually mean it does it right. in most cases, it's just what is more efficient. so yeah, there will be downsides like losing some mechanics, abilities, runes. some champions might become less interesting, but I wonder is it that big step poxnora needs to do in order to become much simplier game in general. don't be afraid, simplier doesn't mean it will instantly lose all its depth. I guess doing it would basically mean revisiting all champions, but trying to keep the current powerlevel of game (read: one-rounding, champions vs non champions effiency ratio and stuff), but in general it would probably mean champions becoming (slightly) less powerful across the board. so let's try to see how some champions could/should/would look like. Draksar Marauder • Attack: Physical • Charged: Fire Bomb • Attack Charged (2) • Mutation: Horror (CD2 from 3 for bigger focus on role) • Violent • Death Charged (3) idea: to make Mutation: Horror more relevant/stronger core. Augur of the Deep • Amphibious • Attack: Physical • Leap (3) • Bounce • Water Vortex • Dissipate Favored Nomad • Attack: Magical • Savage: Storm Clan • Favor • Tempo • Imepentrable • Shielded Aspect of Oblivion • Attack: Magical • Journey to Oblivion • Supercharged (3) • Charged Attack • Attack Charged (3) • Oblivion Shield Imp Jester • Attack: Sonic • Flight (sentry would be implemented into Flight) • Mischief • Chuck Spider • Blind • Cackle I guess, something like 6 abilities could be MAX. mix of passive/active abilities. focusing on stronger abilities/more relevant abilities: what's the point for Light of the Circle to have 1 rank of damage shield? what's the point in Wild Chieftain having Berzerk Attack? consolidate abilities for not so relevant-to-know mechanics: Icewalker could be consolidated into Arctic as Amphibious/Terraform: Lava have Waterwalker and Lavawalker. consolidate abilities causing balance issues and start focusing on the healthy enviroment: Arctic doesn't need to have Ready nor Sonar should exist (simply give respective levels of evasive!). boom, every Voil has like 3 abilities less (considering Sentry is consolidated with Flight). mainstream abilities to be extremely intuitive and universal. for instance, consolidated Corrupted Nora and Backlash into: Corrupted Nora - when a relic/champion generates nora, it takes the equal magical damage. when nora is generated through spells, damage is redirected to shrine/avatar. now make all nlon shrine/nora font nora "gains" as generation. it doesn't matter if it's Illuminate or "refund" from hero equipping itself, consider it to be nora generation. consolidate charm/fear into "distract" (distract(ed) would be silence(d)). (bastion of) iron will is mainstreamed now. fearless doesn't exist anymore. all those frightful blows are something like distracting blows. rename abilities to be "X attacks" if they're on basic attack effects. Chilling Attacks (former Chill X), Charring Atacks (former Burn), Swordbreaking Attacks, Scouring Attacks, Striking Attacks, Precise Attacks, bla bla bla. revisit all instaces of basic attack vs attack. damage shields/auras shouldn't work with basic attack things and etc. mark shouldn't be triggered by tramping around. mainstream debuffs. for instance, all DEF reduction could be one simple mechanic like -1 DEF. stacks. Scour, Sunder, effect from Throw Axe etc. make abilities to "rank of x" if they do have ranks. since sokolof left, this rule was broken. I strongly believe that abilities should stack from different instances if they do have levels. if a champion has rank of X and it gains rank of X from different effect, it should have 2 ranks of X. as for now, sometimes it works this way, sometimes it's not. for instance, Multiattack from Territorial doesn't stack anymore. Training: NKD(1) doesn't stack with other NKD(1) while it should be NKD(2) by this template. ofcourse, the latest example would be disaster for balance, but in that case something should be nerfed. the focus should be to keep pattern. I play barbs now, stacking Rebuke and Jolt does stack. stacking Hawk Attack doesn't stack. there is no rule, you simply need to know every instance individually... mainstream keywords: champions vs relics vs units deployed, summoned, from runedock, spawned, created, swarmed bla bla bla. I know at least 1 example of every one of those than it breaks the rule. Jellebrium Mind doesn't say runedock. BroodguardianS use the "created" word. what is Blinding Reflection redeploy? it's not redeploy nor it's not. it's something inbetweener. a gap for exploits.
I believe one of the common suggestions is to make the upgrades, especially for lower rarity runes, stat bonuses instead of ability bonuses. Consolidation of abilities is an interesting idea, though each one I do feel would need to be looked at, weird interactions can occur fairly easily in this game =P. But yeah, we'll see what happens o_o
Whilst I do think something needs to be done about the way it works currently, I actually like being able to select 2 of 4 upgrades, it allows for a greater variety and different playstyles. I favour simply removing the CP system and allowing all runes to select 2 of 4 abilities.
I think I read in another thread a suggestion about creating 2 "paths" for runes that would be available from the beginning, and focused on that rune's possible roles (instead of choosing individual upgrades) . Of course, that'd mean getting rid of those pesky CPs. As I remember (could be wrong!) it was something like this: A support healing rune would have average stats and Heal Champion 2 (for example). You could then choose from 2 paths (or "packs of upgrades", if you like): Cleanse + Mass Heal 2 (for a pure support healing role) OR +3 damage, +1 defense + Magical Attack (for a combat healer cleric-like role). I guess it'd mean a lot of work for the Owls, but I kinda like that idea, and it'd probably give them more "design space" for future runes, who knows! Anyway, I do think some kind of revamp would be awesome!
That is so stupid (not you, but rather whoever proposed it) I don't even know where to begin ranting from. I'd also like to remind everyone that the vast majority of the playerbase would like CP removed altogether.
I think the pain that people are experiencing with CP is that a level 1 rune costs the same as a level 3 rune, so having an unleveled rune in your deck is always inefficient, and while long time players will have a deck with mostly leveled runes, new players will need to level a full deck, which is very time consuming. I agree with Gedden's point, which I copied from another thread and put in the first comment, that the old system resulted in multiple issues, but one thing that it did right was to make unleveled runes cheaper than fully leveled ones. My suggestion would be to assign a nora cost to every champ at level 1. Each of the 4 upgrades would have a nora cost associated, and when a champ had them applied, the champ would cost that much more. I would make it so that at level 2, the first ability is automatically selected, and the second at level 3. Using Lich King as an example, let's say Teleport 2 is worth 8 nora and Curse is worth 5 nora. A level 1 Lich King would be 87 nora. A level 2 Lich King with Curse would be 92 nora, and a level 2 Lich King with Teleport 2 would be 95 nora. A level 3 Lich King with both would be 100 nora. This would reduce the pain of having unleveled runes, would bring back some of option of running an efficiency or maxxed out champ, without introducing the out of control upgrades that we had before.
I'm in favor of eliminating upgrades and consolidating abilities. Having more clearly defined roles is a good step for game simplicity.
That's actually not true. It's a strong opinion, and a valid one, but it's not a vast majority. KTCAOP is by far the most prolific forum-goers, if anyone knows the trend of things, it'd be him. I actually like upgrades on certain champs. It allows for a variety of uses in different decks. Obvious upgrades suck, however. To refer back to the OP, it's also important to see how much weight different abilities have. Flying is an ability that's pretty much consistent visually and thematically, needing very little explanation, so that's not going to be as big of a deal as a 7th ability as, say, Vigilance or Manic. I am all for an overall reduction of abilities. Like, kind of a lot. Kind of a whole lot.
I think having the choice of abilities adds a lot of appeal and depth to the game - more than one would normally assume. Simplicity and streamlining doesn't have to be a removal of features. It would be easier (both to implement and game-wise) to streamline similar abilities (again) and take out some abilities that are redundant. This mostly goes for the overabundance of passive abilities that clutter the bottom of the panels
I wish the game went to how the old customization went. Nora costs had reducers and increasers. I would take vuln sonic off aspect of stone anyday.
Don't get me wrong, I truly enjoyed the old customization system.... but I don't think we should bring it back. The game is daunting enough for new players without having the same rune getting different nora costs because of the upgrades you choose. Anyway, the Owls already said it's not coming back, so... we'd better look forward!
I also like having choices and it would be a shame to lose what little customization is left. As for the CP's I'd like to see them go towards custom skins, names, titles, medals or something of that nature. Allowing for some change every 50cp's. It makes the champ playable right out of the box with a bling option as you level up.
I feel we could just as easily have a new rune the alternate purpose of an old rune and have that old rune serve just one purpose. Having clearer rune roles makes it easier for new players to start grasping what they're opponent's capabilities are without having to worry about how different upgrades can affect how that rune works in a fundamental way. EDIT: not 'just as easily', it would take a lot of work, but I think it's a better solution.
on the topic of ability/complexity creep on champs compare the possible upgrades on the diamondhide basilisk from SL to more recent champs. I recommend playing friendley matches using BG's made of only classic runes though, its awesome.
I guess i'm kind of conservative in terms of major game streamlining /simplification. I remember the removal of the old leveling system being a huge deal to me, to the point where i considered leaving for good, but then the game (and my playing of it) transitioned just fine... AND YET i overall dread seeing things taken off of the old pox, and that dread was enhanced by playing conquest of champions yesterday (seen it yet?). How can a former Pox designer even call THAT an iteration? A lot of the things i read on rune streamlining above are in keeping with the overall "simplicity" that goes into playing (and i must assume designing) CoC. I'm more in line with the streamline without drastically remove kind of spirit. And am mostly posting out of a regret for not expressing my disagreement the last time the "simple gavel" fell, decreeing the game was improving by chopping off parts and ritually offering them to and for the advent of new players (yes, i am saying the transaction was both ritual and judicial to me), instead of breaking down the game and analyze the sort of thing that would get the player base to expand. Well, my point boils down to: make the game more Pox and less (a hell of a lot less) CoC. Also i hope i'm not stepping on toes and such. Oh, and i'm noirman, i've been playing the game for a (longish?) while, but i know my anonymity will remain anyhow so... that's that.
There's no reason to think you need CP to have upgrades. Champions could come with their upgrades unlocked. Upgrades have been designed so poorly for champions that players feel like the game would be better off without them. I think some level of customization is good, and I argue small upgrades (which only minorly change a champions role) are better than no upgrades. I've promoted this in other threads because I think it's how I'd like to see the redesign go. My redesigns are very focused because it gives the rune a very specific role. Then it's up to the players to pick runes that do just what they want instead of putting in runes that can do anything. Side abilities that you don't always use like racials, immunities, and flavor abilities could go on upgrades. For example, I'd give Draksar Marauder the role (and of course nora cost may change): • Attack: Physical • Charged: Fire Bomb • Attack Charged (2) • Mutation: Horror (CD 2) Upgrades: Violent, +2 DEF, +1 SPD, +10 HP Mutations are CD 2 so they happen more quickly when he gets to combat. Charged Fire Bomb as a side ability. Basilisk Templar could read Attack: Physical Petrifying Gaze Quest: Kill Enemy Punishing Aura Upgrades: Violent Impenetrable Immunity: Magical Regeneration: 2
If abilities are removed, then the champion will lose some functionality. However, that's the point of such changes; keep in mind champions can always be made in the future with Weaken Spells or Crushing Charge. By removing them on one champion, design space is opened up in the future.
This aspect of the game needs to be addressed in a way that makes it much more new player friendly. While I would personally love for pox to retain a lot of its complexity I also know in my gut that I'm far from a new player. I'd like to see abilities streamlined and consolidated while at the same time made more relevant without sacrificing the depth of gameplay. A lot can be done with simply key wording all similar abilities (think Colossal vs Resistance: small unit) I think one of the major problems with CoC is that they have very limited champ interaction. Imagine pox with only basic attacks. That's it. They only have one champ that has an AOE attack. What makes pox leagues more interesting are abilities like charge, breaths, bombs, beams, etc... These types of abilities should definitely stay. The piddly abilities that are so focused or non consequential to only offer bonuses for depth of game knowledge on the other hand need to go. As far as the CP/LVL champ system I've heard the following: 1) Flair upgrades - essentially Taunts, sounds, shiny sprite effects, attack animation, nick names (OwlApproved name additions like going from "Broken Bones" to "Broken Bones, the destroyer"that type of stuff. 2) Basic stat upgrades - While bland it does allow flexible/impactful champ customization that will still allow new players to easily recognize champs and what they do ability wise on the base champion. 3) Remove CP and upgrades entirely 4) Remove CP only - doesn't fix the complexity problem but does help new users not have to grind. 5) Upgrades cost nora - Similar to the old system where you could choose your upgrades but it would make your champs more expensive / inefficient. Only problem with this is potentially increases complication. I personally think that #1 or #2 are the better options as I do feel that in Pox players love their champions and do want to pimp them out to some extent. Flair is a great way to do that for people to personalize their experience. Either way this will cause a community outcry similar to the revamp which originally was going to be #3. I'm willing to compromise the complexity of upgrades/cp to maintain it in the game.
