PoxNora imProvement Projects #1

Many of the Fae were adversely affected and these champs generally fall into the first category of champs you mentioned (i.e. ones with less than 40 HP). I don't have a lot of time right now to post much about them but the theme could use a look. In general, the melee Fae look fine but the ranged ones could use a look.

 

Honestly, the Skeez Herder seems a bit absurd at 92 nora. I know a lot on him has been tapped, but as presently constituted he is prohibitively expensive.

 

Reposting the stuff from the thread in split forum just to provide some clarification on that.
Here is a full list of changes for stitched,aside from sarina,kiergana,tyrant which got core abilites changed.This are the stitched which got zero changes aside for nora cost:
This stitched that got changed cost because of new hp/def formula:
Anathema 4 nora increase(its increase unless i specificly mention its a decrease)
Blackguard 2 nora
Concealer 3 nora
Stitchling 5 nora
Dreameater 3 nora
First 4 nora
Hexer 4 nora
Libarian 3 nora
Magearm 2 nora
Magician 5 nora
Mangler 4 nora
Merged -8 nora(Part of merged reduced cost is because exertion got its cost lowered)
Mesmer 4 nora
Mirrorskin -1nora
Monolith -3 nora
Seamstress 4 nora(also bombs/aoes got nerfed)(This rune has been nerfed in some way every single patch since DOG took over)
Shaman 4 nora
Warlock 5 nora

 

<----- To be fair he didn't actually change this time round, but you upped his nora cost the patch before.

Think of the mushroomy children!

 

Take it as you will, this is not targeted at anyone directly, but you guys are freaking unbelievable.
Im 100% sure this will turn into a "X champion is too expensive, please change so it can be more efficient".
So instead of having a big project to better reflect the cost on champs, so we dont end up with 50 nora muck dragons or 90 nora mogas, we are probably going to have a bunch of "efficiency reduction shoebox round" because you people couldnt care less about balance, they just want the stuff they play at meta levels.
Freaking unbelievable.

 

Okay so comparison project: Abilities that prevent a champ from doing stuff when they come into play.

Stasis vs Sporedrop vs Dragonbark.

Stasis = -8 nora / 3 turns duration / gains AP so will come out turn 3 full ap

Sporedrop = +5 nora / 4 turns duration / doesn't gain AP so has to wait an extra turn to move / turns into relic again on death - which hatches after 2 turns / 15 hp relic

Dragonbark = +8 nora / 4 turns duration / doesn't gain AP so has to wait an extra turn to move / turns into relic again on death - which hatches after 2 turns / 20 hp relic

Conclusion: the chance to re-hatch into a champion again makes it really difficult to cost. If you can make the champ come back once or twice it's super efficient, but that's your enemy playing badly more than anything. 3 turns is extremely noticeable compared to 4 turns, much less of a tempo hit.

A little love for the our relic starting friends, perhaps?

 

Bonecrusher is as 42 HP, and that's his biggest detriment. Much of that is because Stunning Sweep is fiendishly over-costed (+9 compared to stun).

Carrionling has 5 HP. He dies to a sneeze. Unfortunately, he also pops out of other champs.

Dark Messenger. Not sure what else to say.

Executioner and Fallen Hero each have 2 DEF and more than 50 HP, for sub 70 nora. Fallen Hero clocks in at 55 with Block.

Zombie Behemoth has 73 HP for 50 Nora.

 

I think about champs and abilities as two things.

When you give my champ a batch of abilities - say worth 40 nora - I have three questions.

1: Do I want those abilities (i.e. countless sandbag abilities)
2: Do they play well with the champ, to make the ability stronger (i.e. old sunder, ZA on Timmy)
3: Is my champ capable of looking after those abilities (i.e. moga problems)

To address these points:

1: If a champ needs sandbagging, its because there's a problem with the costing somewhere. Sandbagging just papers over this issue. Stop doing it and work on fixes for the champs.
2: The sunder solution was a great step in the right direction. I actually think some abilities could be on melee champs only (ZA for instance). Also, we need to look at the interplay of abilities, Counterstrike and Nohkan Do for example. Could certain "super pairs" carry a nora cost?
3: I'd give weak champs a fixed discount on abilities. The fact is you are likely to get less active turns for your ability, meaning your nora/turn cost for the ability is higher than on a tougher champ

 

This is the most interesting point, I think.
The point is that the same ability (life siphon for example) should have a different cost depending on the overall survivability of the champ. But i understand that this is very difficult to put in a formula. A first approximation could be to relate the cost of abilities only with HP and DEF... still better than nothing.

Let's say the base cost of an ability is established for champions that have 50 hp and 0 DEF. Then for every DEF point it could be increased by 5%, and increased or decreased by 1% for every HP point.

So if X ability costs 10 Nora for a 50 HP 0 DEF champ, it will cost 12 for a 60 HP 2 DEF champ, and 8 for a 30 HP 0 DEF champ.
This is just a very simple example, better formulas could of course be implemented... but the idea is there.

 

If abilities go to a sliding scale, I would start with abilities like bombs/cones that do a percentage of the champ's base damage.

 

I support the idea of too effient -> Get Sandbag ability and too expensive -> Gain Discount Ability.

Though most Discount Abilities we have grants a very large discount.
If we could have more abilities that discount 3-5 Nora, it would be great.

 

This puppy wants to see Broken Bones get a big cost decrease.



You don't want to disappoint this puppy, do you?

 

Yes, of course I support the idea of an automatic inclusion in the formula...
There could be abilities with cost modifier based on HP and DEF, as well as abilities with cost modifiers based on other stats, and abilities with fixed cost...

 

To be fair, he suggested those nerfs, and the surprise was +16 nora on top of the nerf. So yeah, he did target it for a nerf but then the powers that be added some pretty epic additions.

 

One thing I've always wondered is why Kanen Slipped is still limited to 1 per deck. If I remember correctly, that was a nerf back when he was really strong, but he's been changed repeatedly since then. I'm not sure I'd even run two, but it just seems odd considering you can have two named legendary "heroes" and I don't think Slipped is a balance issue anymore.

Also, give one of the less used Skeezick Detection.

 

Didn't he not have pack leader initially and had deck limit: 2, then people complained? Maybe I'm imagining things but I recall being annoyed by that change lore wise.

 

I like the thought process. But it is difficult to consider every facet of every champion and determine where synergy justifies recosting. This is especially true in situations where the synergy required to make the champ worth its nora cost is between 2 or more champs. I can think of many examples but for our purposes let us consider zeventrench. For him to be worth 132 nora with his kit and stats you need his aegis abilities active which would be another 120 nora for those champs out. Its similar in a way to how no one would run something like vicar unless he can be boosted. Meaning that although currently these champs may be costed correctly, they are only worth their explicit nora if other factors are true. Does this mean they need a modifier? That seems unecessarily complex. I think the abilities need to be weighted differently and should be less in the overall formula vs stats. Maybe if you did 70% nora for stats and 30% for abilities and didnt allow outliers, you could have a more accurate formula. On another note I would even argue that instakill spells and abilities are negative synergy and could be taken into account considering the highest cost champ (barring low health and other obvious factors) would be the auto target. Not sure if that is too far, but theoretically I am saying

 

Swamp Wisp

Poison Aura 3: 6 Nora.
Evasive 3: 9 Nora.
Flight: 6 Nora.
Grant: Poison cloud trap: 9 Nora.
Poison Eater: 6 Nora.
Poison Burst: 8 Nora.

So its abilities cost 44 Nora.

Stats:
0 Attack.
7 Speed.
1 range.
0 Defence.
52 hp.

Its stats cost 31 Nora. Don't actually believe a modifier is in effect here for no basic attack. There should be one.

Giving an overall cost of 75.

Now lets compare it too Hyaenid Flamefist.

Leap 3: 8 Nora
Evasive 2: 6 Nora
Attack Fire: 0 Nora.
Flameburst: 8 Nora.
Initiator: 6 Nora

So its abilities cost: 28
Stats:
12 Damage
7 Speed
1 Range
1 Defence
51HP

Its stats cost: 52 nora.

So intriguingly, the Hyaenid that has a basic attack costs almost the same as a unit without one with a similar set of abilities (poisonburst/Flameburst)(Evasive rank 3/Evasive rank 2). lets just absorb that fact before even discussing the cooldowns of 3 turns which render the Wisp almost pointless for 3 turns at a time whilst the Hyaenid simply reverts to smacking you in the face to great effect for 3 turns. apparently this costs 5 Nora. underpriced. that or the Wisp is overpriced. Pick your poison.
Could also mention the fact that Flameburst costs the same as Poisonburst. have you changed Boon of the Undead?

Aurora Sunmage.
Just as a side point. Solar flare also costs the same. 8 nora. yeah. makes mucho senseo. (also has a basic attack. on a ranged unit. I cant decide what's worse.)

 

Ritual Cultist: It has range 3-5, but has no abilities that rely upon/interact with it's range. Functionally, the cost it pays for range that it can't use is the equivalent of a built in nora modifier. It wasn't as much of an issue before, but with the cd increase in bombs and the increases in charges/use and costs for charge-generating abilities, it is now an incredibly expensive unit for something that can heal every other turn and bomb every third turn. It would be nice if this unit was made into a cheaper (i.e. less than the 89 nora for angel) source of ranged magic damage for SP (a role that is pretty much lacking).

This could be accomplished by giving it attack magic on base, focusing one upgrade tree on different types of charge generation mechanics (death, spell, violence/abuse) and the other upgrade tree on a tool for using charges (charged heal, charged magic bomb, charged disease bomb). I'd probably remove vaporize too, and add more hp, unless abuse charged was an option, in which case I might keep vaporize on base.