About 90% of indigenous people died due to illnesses, following modern estimates. Sicknesses with no immunities are ravaging. Most of those that remained were murdered in the most genocidal fashion by the greedy invaders. I for one think that if we keep Columbus day we also need a Hitler day, a Stalin day, a Pol Pot day, a Kissinger day - one for each genocidal lowlife some thug is willing to defend!
No I don't, not that it would matter. Hadn't the illnesses gotten them they would have been murdered by the invaders. Maybe they got off lightly.
Don't see how this is relevant, but ok. Glad you worked? ~ Anyway, I don't see anyone suggesting that the disease thing didn't happen (but it's fun to pretend people who disagree with you are morons), but what is clear is that the New World was basically like colonizing in a 4X game, where eXterminate appears to have been part of the plan, so if diseases played a part and made it easier, I don't think they really complained about it or tried to slow it down (open to seeing sources suggesting otherwise, if available). I don't think Columbus is particularly to blame, but I also don't think the holiday is really about him (much like 4th of July or Christmas isn't really about ONE thing or person, but encapsulates a greater concept). Changing the name is, by my understanding, acknowledging that what colonialism brought wasn't really that great for the natives here, that's all, and is a nice gesture after killing off millions of them (inadvertently or otherwise) and taking all their land.
It's possible they would have been murdered. Another possibility is that the natives would have outnumbered the invaders too much for a successful invasion. Yet another is that the numbers would have been large enough to prevent any invasion attempt and instead cause trade to be established. We have no way of knowing what would have happened if disease hadn't wiped them out. All we can do is speculate.
It's true that it's all speculation, though I think it's hard to disagree that the impacts of colonization in the new world (and much of the rest of the world) was largely negative to indigenous populations. Also, for me, it's not even about the US. Yea, there was some manifest destiny stuff and what not, but by and large when the US came along, the damage was already done and the people here were just trying to start a new life.
Eh, with guns and armor they'd have murdered any amount. Not to mention making false promises to one half to have them murder the other half alongside you.
Is it not speculation to wonder what would have happened in North America if disease hadn't killed off a lot of them? Or are you suggesting it'd have been exactly the same as South America, and that this suggestion is fact and not speculation? In any case, I was just agreeing that it does count as speculation to wonder what would have happened if we changed one or two variables. I don't think you are going to be able to convince me that what happened in South America is the only other alternative.
Agreed, the way events happened were certainly negative for indigenous populations. Both in the Americas and Africa. Parts of Asia as well I suspect.
The weak have always been driven out, killed, or enslaved by the strong. Our ENTIRE history as a species plays out EXACTLY that way, in every corner of the globe. The "mean white man did something mean and ONLY he is mean" narrative is moronic, incorrect, and lamesauce. Survival of the fittest is NOT a game. It is and always has been our reality. Life is not fair, and it never will be. How in the heck do you think they could have known about germ theory AND been able to stop the spread of disease??? We struggle with disease suppression to this day! Columbus is NOT at all to blame. The holiday IS about him discovering the New World. Changing the name is pandering. History happened. Hiding from it will do MORE harm than good. If we, as humans, are ever going to truly evolve and progress the LAST thing we should do is start lying about the past. Celebrate BOTH days. Changing the name is worse than a waste of time.
As I said, I am not blaming Columbus. Nor am I blaming "the white man." I am only talking about the reality of what colonization brought. I speculate that if Asian cultures had started exploring and colonizing first, we'd have seen largely the same things occur, and it'd still be tragic, in my opinion. Changing the name is acknowledging history and TRYING to tell the real story. Hiding it behind a "celebration" of Colonialism/Columbus does MORE harm than good. If you actually look at US history books, you know what is taught? Kids learn all about how Columbus "sailed the ocean blue," "discovered" America, etc. You know what they don't learn? The names of the tribes that lived here, etc. Go ask some kid what he knows about native americans and what he knows about Columbus. The difference will be vastly skewed in favor of Columbus and his "triumphs." I am glad we agree that we should not be hiding this stuff, but I think you come to exactly the wrong conclusion and solution. Stop lying about the past and teach the real stuff.
It's incredible how these nationalists try to defend their favourite murderers. How about I start defending Hitler. "The Jews were weak and deserved to be murdered, derp derp! And it wasn't even murder, it was the natural order of things, derp derp!" Ah, what a planet.
Columbus didn't discover America, though. That's the exact myth that renaming the day is meant to dispel. He is credited with multiple things, none of which he did.
Because we are human beings, not maniacal tyrants who wants to revise history to make ourselves look good. We should be learning about the world, and our past, both good and bad, so we can grow as a species. We spend plenty of time on our victories and patting ourselves on the back. In fact, that's almost ALL we do most of the time. God forbid we try and learn from the past sometimes too so we can build a better future. This is largely speculation. I don't see any specific reason to believe that cultures aborted by colonization would not have evolved in some fashion, nor do I see any reason to believe that western culture is somehow fundamentally better. And yea, the middle east and Africa are a mess, tho I disagree that the solution is MORE colonization - rather, I think the mess is CAUSED by colonization. Things like Boko Haram can be traced directly back to the problems brought about by colonization.
Relatedly, there's a book by Orson Scott Card that is... quite odd: Pastwatch: The Redemption of Christopher Columbus http://www.amazon.com/Pastwatch-The-Redemption-Christopher-Columbus/dp/0812508645 It might annoy people who like facts, because it's historical science fiction, so it starts with a historical premise and then goes off the wall with time travel and everything. But anyway, some people here might be interested in it, since the subject matter is somewhat relevant. Irony here is that while the topic involves native peoples... the "heroes" of the story end up being people with the better technology and Columbus himself.
You think native americans had it rough? Try being colonized by the portuguese - they have an essay on how to mess up a civilization and keep it firked up through eternity.
As I said, I don't think this is a North America thing so much as a Colonialism thing. At the same time, I think it's largely inevitable also.
Which, despite it being fiction, is what leads to the "Prime Directive" in Star Trek. How do you feel about that one?
