A couple problem runes in sp

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by super71, Aug 30, 2016.

  1. super71

    super71 I need me some PIE!

    Honestly surge was never really an issue until we started counting summons into the surge count. We ran into similar problems when we were counting illusions from shade striker and ghost stalker.
     
  2. super71

    super71 I need me some PIE!

    Forglar swamp actually has very few good healing options these days actually. Mike doesn't need easy target and the pet can keep the ap gain for initiative it just shouldn't come into play invincible.

    I agre though I think overall nerfing all healing is a bad step to take, I could see in moderation maybe start with heal champ and if it's still to good going from there.

    I don't like nerfing healing overall when it's only a couple units that make healing annoying to deal with.
     
  3. darklord48

    darklord48 Forum Royalty

    Surge always counted summons. It also used to count illusions, that was the whole thing about moga decoy and moga den.
     
    SPiEkY likes this.
  4. super71

    super71 I need me some PIE!

    Really I was sure at one point it only counted real champions. I just mentioned the illusions thing with shade striker and ghost stalker.

    All elves used to heal from eleven statue for every elf in play, ghost stalker made illusions that pretty much healed elves to max health. Course wouldn't be a problem in today's game with things like seism.
     
  5. darklord48

    darklord48 Forum Royalty

    I started out in 2007 playing SP. Moga Den and Moga Birthmother were used to increase the count of Moga for the G'hern with Surge Moga. Then in Drums of War Moga Decoy was released making it even easier to increase the count.
     
  6. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    In general, things move from less restricted to more restricted.

    So things tend to move from "affects all" to "affects real", etc. and not the other way around.
     
  7. Pixyrus

    Pixyrus Forum Royalty

    Voil are beyond broken to be honest... So much synergy and most of them are too cheap for what they bring.
     
    super71 likes this.
  8. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Can you provide a specific comparison of a good rune in Voil and a good rune in another theme where the Voil is clearly superior? (aside from those with Bulwark)
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2016
  9. Lushiris

    Lushiris I need me some PIE!

    Voil Sorcerer vs Strig Magebane; Voil queen vs any swarmer, Voil Guard vs any bodyguard... I can do more anytime.

    Also, my remaining problem with Mika is Weaken Spells. Some people(one certain SP player) might argue that it's not used(although I see her in every SP(FF or split) BG with it, stacking with Font bonus. It's obnoxious to no end and make an insane amount of spells useless with very little effort. But hey, I just need to pay 25 nora to have something like that for 4 turns in ST so it's all fine I guess.
     
  10. themacca

    themacca Master of Challenges

    Magnify Beast
     
  11. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    This is mostly Surge which is already slated to be adjusted.

    Plenty of good swarmers out there, don't see how Queen is outright better or "too cheap for what it brings."

    This is a Bulwark champ.
     
  12. super71

    super71 I need me some PIE!

    A bulwark champ with bodyguard, 55 base hp, 3 defense. Why are you even arguing trying to argue voil aren't blatantly overpowered on every level.
     
  13. Lushiris

    Lushiris I need me some PIE!

    Well you asked. And about queen: 1) she doesn't need to attack to have the "swarm work" 2) She gets surge out of her summons 3) for some reason the only swarmers cheaper than her are in SP.
     
  14. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    @Pixyrus said MOST Voil are "too cheap for what it brings." I am asking for specific analysis of the champions where this is true so I can evaluate them. I specifically asked that Bulwark champs not be included because that's already being adjusted (down to 2 HP and removed from Voil/Skeletons) - so it's not relevant. Surge is a similar situation since Ranged Surge is going away completely.

    The point of my question is to evaluate these champions and make any changes necessary. I am not trying to say whether they are overpowered one way or another, but asking for specifics so I can evaluate it.
     
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  15. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Are you suggesting Voil Caverns is specifically too cheap for what it does, compared to Swarm in general? And I assume you feel the same way about the other abilities in this series (which all cost 10-14ish)?
     
  16. super71

    super71 I need me some PIE!

    Hmm will things like bone circle staff get adjusted as well ? You want a specific analysis but their isn't one to give that hasn't been done already they are too cheap and efficient for the sp bonus, and sonic flight isn't a drawback.
     
  17. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    I don't know what BCS has to do with this discussion.

    If most Voil are too cheap for what they bring as has been claimed, then you should be able to show me a Voil champ that, when compared to a good (not shoebox) rune in another theme, is demonstratably undercosted. Then I can figure out why (maybe it has an ability like Voil Caverns, and Voil Caverns is undercosted). Kind of like what you did with the Centurion/Commander.

    So far, no one has given a concrete analysis of this sort.
     
  18. super71

    super71 I need me some PIE!

    Voil stalker

    Attack: 7
    speed: 6
    range: 1-2
    defense: 1
    health: 47

    elusive leap
    conqueror

    pet swift wing:
    warlord
    sonic flight

    at it's cheapest 72 nora

    Queen anaru

    attack: 8
    speed: 6
    range: 1
    defense: 1
    health: 45

    pet winger lerper
    reflexes
    flight
    vulerability: fire

    cost at it's cheapest 80 nora

    I chose anaru for 3 reasons, she has a pet, flight, and a vulerability.

    Voil has 1 less damage, 1 more range, 2 more health. The voil has the potential to get to 13 damage and 5 range, evasive rank 1, and 2 defensive abilities in leap and fear with conqueror. At their cheapest builds the voil ends up 8 nora cheaper, at the queen's cheapest build and the voil's best build the voil is still 6 nora cheaper.

    Anaru has reflexes 2 but a vulnerability that is pretty common in most factions. The voil has evasive rank 1 and a vulnerability that is largely in the faction sp.

    Swift wing

    8 attack
    6 speed
    1 range
    0 defense
    18 hp

    detection 2
    flight
    initiative


    winged lerper

    8 attack
    6 speed
    1 range
    1 defense
    42 hp, not sure when this happened.

    flight and detection 3
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2016
  19. SPiEkY

    SPiEkY King of Jesters

    Looks like all the extra norans are in that baller pet
     
  20. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Queen Anaru is generally considered bad and no one runs her, and is being reworked away from the current Pet: Winged Lerper for the next patch actually, so I am not sure that comparison shows that Stalker is OP, but just that Anaru is bad. In general, it's better to compare good champs to good champs if you want to find out if one of the good champs is OP. Comparing good to bad is valuable if you want to find out what to do with the bad one, however - so this is a good comparison if your case is to argue for a Queen Anaru buff.

    In any case, Winged Lerper has always had 42 HP. It's the actual champ she summons - which is why it costs so much to summon for her, since it's basically a 2 for 1 champion. Comparatively, Swiftwing only has 18 HP. That's a huge difference in effective HP between the two units.

    Pre-revamp Winged Lerper:

    upload_2016-9-1_17-49-25.png

    Even now, the Winged Lerper is ~55 nora.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2016

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