Last attempt at saving UD

Thanks for this. Is there any analysis of why it's not worth 45 nora now? And why 35-40 is better? What are the spells at 45 nora that you deem more powerful/relevant, and what are the comparable runes at 35-40 nora that you could see this comparing well with?

I feel like you are arguing 2 different things here:

How can both of these things be true when the latter is what allows for the former?

 

I don't disagree it was a huge nerf, which is partly why it did drop 50% in cost. The ability was extremely powerful before and warranted a double digit nora cost.

In general, I'd say that most of what you said makes sense but also that it's generally already being accounted for in current UD design. It's why things like Minos, Drain Vitality, Avarice and Boundless were all created.

Champion based synergies of this sort is a bit harder to create easily/quickly, because you often need multiple new abilities/runes like with Minos to make it robust enough (and they have much more limited meta impact, relative to non-champion runes).

I do think abilities like Phantom Dash and Homing Sense could probably be utilized more in UD. Maybe a Grant: Homing Sense would be very interesting.

Also, if anyone has an idea on how we can make DEP work while not being just OPed relative to other relocates, I am open to those ideas as well. Maybe it's as simple as putting the new Recharge on her (5 LOL for -2 CD).

 

They are the same thing tho? The global buff (the 2nd point and the part that was changed) allows for the champs to push with buffed stats (the 1st point, which it no longer does)?

 

I was asking about the parts I quoted:

Which suggests that what made it GREAT was the global. And I am asking how can the main strength of a rune not be a problem?

Your argument here appears to be, "Don't nerf the strong part?" Or is it just the presentation that's giving this impression?

~

Anyway, let's get back to what I want to do. I want to stop focusing on "what was nerfed" and figure out what the rune SHOULD be to be playable.

First, is it literally unplayable now?

If so, why is it not? What competing runes are taking up the slots? Why are those runes better and does a buffed DV simply push out some other rune to unplayability?

Second, if it is unplayable, what can we do?

Should it be a cost adjustment? Is it 35 nora? If so, why?

Does it be global? Is it global and 3 champs buffed? is it global and 2 champs buffed and 40 nora?

Third, what's the abstract aspect of the rune that we want to emphasis/keep?

Is it the DMG debuff? the SPD debuff? The DMG buff? or the SPD buff?

 

For a reference point, we can look at something like Devolve, which isn't run regularly, but does show up here and there.

Devolve is 30 nora for:

Target champion has -50% DEF, SPD, and DMG for 4 turns.

Drain Vitality's debuff, in comparison:

• Roughly equivalent debuff
  • Sometimes Devolve will be better, other than times DV's debuff is better
• +2 turn duration on debuff

So, ignoring the buff aspect, how much is 50% more uptime worth in terms of the debuff?

It's certainly not 0. You could argue it's worth 50% more cost, which puts DV at 45, but that's not really how spells scale.

So it's probably something close to 10 nora, putting DV at 40 (if we want to argue that Devolve is not playable at 30, then our baseline needs to move).

Now, DV does also do this:

• Buffs up to 3 champs with +2 DMG and +1 SPD in AE5

So how much is this worth?

It's true that you won't get all 3 necessarily, but it's at least one in almost every situation. So how much is

• Target champion gains +2 DMG and +1 SPD worth?

 

So you mean...

Current:
45 Nora: Target champion has -6 DMG and -3 SPD for 6 turns. Then, the closest 3 friendly champions within 5 spaces gain +2 DMG and +1 SPD for 6 turns.

Proposed:
??? Nora: Target champion has -4 DMG and -2 SPD for 6 turns. Then, the closest 2 friendly champions gain +2 DMG and +1 SPD for 6 turns.

Like this?

This seems strictly worse to me, but maybe I am underestimating the global.

 

I remember reading those but they all involve bringing back Beckon Demon, right?

 

I don't think every deck is running Aurora + Blinding Flash. If the Spellsurges are too strong that's one thing but we should evaluate BF at 35 nora for the purposes of this comparison. I agree that BF is better than Devolve in most situations, but the value is a bit more abstract and more easily countered as well.

So now that you don't play DV, what have you replaced it with?

 

Well, I was asking for suggestions that don't involve bringing back the old Beckon Demon, because that's simply not happening.

 

Do you agree with this, @nepyonisdead , would you prefer DV/BE to stay "killed" so we can push UD in a different direction?