Skeezick Menace I think the range dominance in this BG is a little much. Im not fond of Forbidden Fruit for a new player deck because i feel it can be rage inducing and take away from the fun when people are just getting into the game. Quicken, March, DB. I think one of these should go. Too many (pseudo) AP gen crutches and promotes poor play. This should be giving the new players an even battlefield where they are learning the core of the game, not giving them bad habits and false sense of skill. Again, with those three i dont think 2 quickens is needed. Id only use one. Skeezick general, grunts, black guard, dragonslayer, revolt are some things i would consider to lower the range options. I think you could do more relics or equips to compensate for the spells. Clutch of Akakios Something doesn't sit right about this deck with me. Im not sure what, it seems fine on the surface but something seems off. I would ask for Akakios instead of Dreadnought. I see the synergy there but Dreadnought is a hefty price tag that a new player shouldn't be trapped into playing. Akakios is thematic and far easier to use. Id ask for a Fire storm to replace something, its classic SL. Speaking of classic SL, although DB , quickening is aswell i still don't want to see these runes crutching these decks and not allowing new players to rely on their own AP management and forethought. DragonStorm I cant say much about this one. It may be the best one despite its lack of range. It seems straight forward and noob friendly. Id ask for that Vindrax spell that buffs dragons Kiss of Vex could be good. Patrols may be good to replace something in here to give that added range and font pressure. Possibly a dragonfear and drake swarm. The deck is decent enough, i think it can provide a decent balance of strength and ease of use. It seems yall are insistent on the Crutch runes though. Mutant farm animal parade Ummmm, id rather not. I think spell seals are far to advanced a concept for new players. They need to be played around and planned for. I feel they will be wasted and sandbagging new players. The rest of it is decent, however id drop 2-3 champ runes for some offensive or utility spells. This could be a strong deck with those changes, it still may struggle versus the other PD proposals i've seen. The Unending Swarm I feel this deck is trying to do too much. Im not fond of mixing Myx with other stuff without the main supporting group. You have the Matriarchs but i feel the Broodlord is needed and a drone signal or other supporting myx would help aid the cause. Its kind of a Motley Crue despite being insect based. The spells are lacking although you have the coveted crutch duo in there. Id retool the Myx portion out or change out some of the champs for more myx presence. Taking the Myx out, id remove those relics and add in more impactful relics and trim the champ count down to put in more offensive spells and add a bit of utility. VOTE: DragonStorm
Hate to break it to you, but that's how SL plays. Powerturns. More powerturns. And yet more powerturns. Nice to know that SL's basic playstyle promotes poor play and gives a false sense of skill. These decks are meant to teach SL, and SL IS POWERTURNS. Suffice to say I disagree with much of your assessment, but the one I'll address in particular is the Myx/Insex deck. You seem to want an myx deck. A pure myx deck is awful. You say you want a simplified field for new players but you'd stick a unit with colossal in there? Again, the only deck with Myx that will do remotely well at present is a Myx/Insex deck. Obviously this deck is not optimized because it lacks the two most essential units being the kwing alpha and the Myx Slasher, but otherwise it is quite similar to the deck I have run with as much success as one can hope for from SL atm.
I have played many SL deck with neither Benediction or Quickening and been successful over my pox career. That said, im not a hardcore ranked player or a SL main. I do feel that free attacks and AP generation are crutches that support poor play. If you play without them and are successful then the presence of them help to accent play not become the core of your playstyle. If a person crutched on those runes and played predominately SL PD's then wanted to branch out they would arguably have a hard time in the absence of their crutch runes. To say you can't win or can't make power plays without DB and Quick i think is false. I also didn't say getting rid of both was the answer. I feel that one is enough. Also im going back to when i first started playing this game and things i hated and almost made me quit. I want to alleviate these pressures and disparities for new players. I trudged through SP TG deck until i became proficient at the game. Then i went to UD where i felt at home. Both were victims to CC and were envious of other factions copious AoE and or super spells such as DB, Quick, and Mobi. I felt slighted playing my faction and wondered why i had to perform at a higher level of skill to accomplish what others are given freely. As a personal choice i decide to not use Mobi in my FW decks. I think i have done so in niche decks on maybe 10 occasions in 6+ years and over 500 BG's. I still perform at a high level of play and am successful without what i consider being a crutch rune. I believe i should think ahead and move my pieces strategically and deal with my AP the same as other factions. When AP gen became more prominent i would allow meager AP gain, such as Invig or Drive or Bazaar. However, i still didn't use Mobi. You DONT NEED it. I have also played against ALOT of decks that have won without either. I have also spectated MANY SL games where i never saw either played. There was a time where both were seen to be bad because of how much they cost aswell. As far as the Myx thing, i cant say if a full Myx is bad or not. However i can say that there are better choices to pair that will make a stronger selection for the small group in the greater BG. There are a number of Large champions in the PD's to handle Brood Lord. However, i see your point. Again, id rather see no Myx than to , in my opinion, half hazardly throw them in here just so they are represented. Also you cant compare YOU and YOUR success with that of a new player. You could probably win with 30 Bane Shift runes thrown in a blender. A new player will look at them confused, run into the brick walls that are the other PD's. Get frustrated and either pick up another PD or quit all together. My goal is to make each deck, fun , unique and easy to use.
I have played SL lol I clearly stated that. If you believe because i don't main a faction i can't give input on how new players will receive it, then you're a bit daft. Also, if you use DB, Quick, Mobi, etc and you are already skilled at the game, then you can make great plays and use them strategically with forethought. You give new players these tools and they will crutch on them and not fully learn how to play well and think ahead because they have get out of jail free runes. I feel like lessening the opportunity for forming bad habits and learning a poor playstyle the better these new players can get. On another note, players playing against such runes would likely get frustrated and upset that there skillful maneuvering and Ap saving is ignored by such crutch runes that put their opponent head. For us, its like, Thats SL, you should know, you should plan for it, blah blah blah. For new players, they don't care about your excuse "Thats X, faction, thats how they play" They want fair and balanced gameplay with equal opportunity and a level platform to grow their skill. They'll either all jump to SL (cant beat them, join them) or they will just quit all together out of frustration. Don't put new players in the same boat with yourselves. Also don't think we should trial by fire these new players. They should learn gradually and experience the fun Pox has to offer before being thrown into the gauntlet of super competitive play and faction headaches. TL, DR: Get your head out of your ass and look around
All the proposed UD decks have Sac/Ret. All (but one) of the FW decks have Mobi. All the ST decks have 2x Gale. All the SP decks have Whisper/VP. It's happening. Skills.
well, looking at it logically, if we don't give them these tools then we're denying them the ability to grow to their fullest potential on the starter decks because of the possible harm it may cause breaking news- most of these new players will not be great at this game. most of these new players will not be good at this game. i say this with confidence because most of pox's playerbase over time has not been either. i do not expect that to change any time soon. so why try to limit them? they're gonna find out one way or the other, and frankly SL without powerturns is not much of an appealing deck on a sidenote, if your "skillful maneuvering and ap saving" got wrecked by just one spell, you really have to rethink that. i don't care if it was mobi, db, quickening, firestorm, thaw, what the Firk ever. that's not the spell being op, that's you being bad and getting punished.
And most IS decks have double hammer strike. I have commented on all of these on those forums aswell. Well, except for Gale. I didn't see it effecting new players as much. Also i havent done a UD review yet. I have SP and UD left. So im not just here trying to set a place of welcoming balance for new players. Yes, new players will be bad. Thats the point as to why you shouldn't alienate them with having more than they can handle to start. You're saying we are crippling them but for me i believe its allowing them to get hooked. You can't look at every1 the same way. Some people might enjoy single player continue to TG then get smashed by SL supers or FW mobi or IS Hammers. After 4-5 games of Stomps due to these combo's they may become super frustrated and do one of two things. Uninstall, give bad review. Come to forums, get trolled, find 1 person actually willing to provide good advice, go back and try that advice and find it too hard then quit anyway. OR maybe that advice helps. Another person may be the exact person you expect, they come out of single player to TG and get stomped and the burning competitive spirit ignites in them They are filled with joy, not frustration. They have found a conquest to embark on, a foe to overcome. They come to the forums and get all the knowledge they can, join a guild, watch youtube vids, watch ranked players games. Come back to TG a Hero. Start racking up more wins than losses and make their own deck to test their might in ranked play. From there they become another brethren of the game we all love. Sure that could happen, there are people like that. Tenacious, prideful,enjoy a challenge. However they are few and far between of the ones who just want a light enjoyable experience. Im not saying we should water down pox for noobs. We shouldnt even step foot in TG so it shouldn't matter if we lack what we think it tools to win. This is a safe haven, for new players to grow and learn. Not trial by fire. Old players WILL play TG and WILL stomp new players. New players WILL have some fast learners that will use these cheese tools to STOMP other slower learning players. Frustration will push people away. Id rather have simple fun BG's that try their best to not have these crutch runes to provide a more welcoming environment. That way if some players feel they cant advance to ranked or beyond TG, they have somewhere to go when they get on. They may be a casual and only play 3 times a week after work 1 or 2 games but dont want to live in single player. This is a great place for them to relax and learn the game and enjoy a light fun game. Its doesnt have to be super competitive. Doesn't have to be trial by fire. We dont need to be looking to recruit the best of the best out of TG to join our ranks. This isn't Enders Game.
i could try to actually respond to all of that in the seemingly vain hopes that you'd both understand and be able to respond in a comprehensive and comprehensible way, or i could give up and resort to ad hominem you're on crack and your opinions are factually wrong.
Yall enjoy talking around the subject and not even defending your views against my points. Alot of you, not just here in SL (despite being the worse thus far), are thinking of these decks as decks you'd like to play. Also what is the most competitive for SL deck. You're not thinking of a new players perspective or from a marketing view of wanting to retain players and not scare them off. Counter my points from above with your take on it and explain how you feel new players would gravitate to your few of PD's. Also i havent seen any of you (as i recall) giving any input on the other PD's. Im trying to give feedback and create an environment all around. Im not sticking to faction loyalties or thinking like a 6yr veteran ignoring new user perspective. I havent even done UD yet. It was tiring reviewing the ones i have. I will do UD soon. AP gen, is a crutch. It does support poor play. Just because great players use it and they are great doesn't mean it makes them great. Great players have access to it and know how to use it to its full potential to accent their play. You guys possibly are of that caliber. You also have grown your skill over the years and have that background and diversity to use it as such and not let the spells define your play. Its easy for new players to get into bad habits when they have these outs. If i took Mobi away from Tiny playing a FW deck, he'd still whip my ass. If i gave the use of Mobi to Tiny, he'd whip my ass even worse. A noob that is prone to Mobi and use to using it as a crutch will crumble without its presence. A noob that was denied Mobi, now will have a useful tool in battle. I hope yall can see that difference. @Jib please tell me which of those decks you thought was better. Also, i started that whole post with I DONT LOVE ANY OF THESE DECKS. I picked the best of the mediocre that actually had faction identity.
i would like to clarify that i do not enjoy my part in this. i view it as regrettable but necessary. having said that, where do we begin- 1) if we allow that these runes are massive crutches and you will learn to play better without them, what percentage of the newbie population do you think will pick up your proposed starter decks ("crutch-free") and go swiftly into ranked where the crutches abound? of those, won't just about all of them get stomped because they don't have the same "crutches" as the majority of the players they're against? the main draw to many games is the competitive aspect, and historically it has been for pox. if these players are shown that they stand little to no chance to compete, by your reckoning, without either spending money or some grind-time, what do you figure the retention rate goes to? 2) great players use ap gen well because they understand how the game works and how to get the most out of the mechanic. poor players use ap gen badly because they're bad players and don't understand Bane Shift ap gen is a tool. it is not a crutch, although individual instances of it are quite possibly crutches (just like everything else in this game) 3) a noob that is prone to mobi and used to using it as a crutch is still probably going to lose if his opponent has half a brain. unless we have entirely different ideas about skill, noobs, and so on. given that you probably think you're decent i guess we must. 4) if you're persistent in stating your opinions, at the least please don't state them as though they're god's given truth. we have enough of that around here. 5) posting in all of these threads doesn't make your opinion worth more or less. and if you have bad ideas on a regular basis, it can actually be a bad thing to proffer them that often just sayin.
You're funny lol Im not even sure what your goal in that reply was. Its vastly hypocritical though. Also you take things i've said and misinterpret them then deliver them back as perversions of what i said. The first thing that stuck out in your post was "if you're persistent in stating your opinions, at the least please don't state them as though they're god's given truth. we have enough of that around here" I find that one quite interesting because your perspective of the game and how you are belittling me in your reply and taking the superior more knowledgeable ground to almost scold or preach to me. Well it gives off the same sentiment of you believing your opinion to be Gods given truth. Mobi and other AP gen mechanics, especially the global ones have won games countless times that should have been lost. Also, a newer player has a better chance of beating a intermediate player with mobi/db/quick than they do without it. Those runes have tipped the scales against a superior player numerous times. Also, all of those runes have received alot of hate and discussion in the past. Eventually people just got tired of wasting energy. Also Corpse came and far worse problems arose and those runes helped to combat. All in all, despite what you think of the runes, you have to admit they are good and can swing a match in your favor (often that you were losing). So in response to your number 3, if two noobs are playing and one is playing IS and one is playing FW or SL, then although the IS player may be soundly winning, a desperation Mobi/DB/Quick could easily win him a game. Your number 1 im the most confused about. Possibly this is the biggest problem and why i have been critiquing decks in a poor fashion. To my understanding, PD decks are the decks used for Training Grounds. Much like the TG when i began to play, the decks are only open to being played in that environment. You mention a noob using this PD deck in ranked and getting stomped , frustrated, and turned off of the game due to not having these "crutch" runes they keep experiencing and losing against. I was of the belief that the PD's only played against other PD's in the Training ground. Thats why i wanted them all balanced amongst each other with the littlest amount of frustrating runes to entice and retain players. Is this incorrect? If PD's can be used in Ranked play or other custom matches then the proposed runes are acceptable and arguably needed. Thats not how i understood these decks to work however. I do feel like its widely accepted that mastering something with a handicap and becoming skilled allows you to use other tools more efficiently because you don't rely on them and you already have a wealth of skill and experience without. Whats up with people and there need to color their posts with so much animosity, superiority, and snobbish entitlement. Why can't we just have an open discourse without all the bullshit.
i wanted to give you something concrete to latch onto. go figure it's the bait. here's the thing- aggressive? sure. arrogant? i'd agree to that. hypocritical? i'm not so sure. saying that ap gen as a whole is a tool is a rather safe thing to do- you're the one making the further leap and saying it's a crutch. d'you follow? aside from that i actually don't know what you'd consider "my opinion" from that post, although there are still some candidates. regardless- i do think i'm better than you at this game (or at least that i was- probably that i still am as well, although i haven't played enough recently to be sure). i think i was better than the vast majority of players. i think i understood and understand the game better than most people. is that why i sound preachy? sorta, it's because i'm an ******* that's used to being right. aside from that, the way starter decks used to work at least is that they were rank enabled, and there was also a game mode where you could only use starter decks. then they took away the mode where you could only use starter decks, then they added it back, and then they may have since removed rank compatibility with the starters regardless of that, the number of players who will want to play against something other than just starters all the time with these decks is still likely to be close to 90% (at a low estimate), and the kinds of decks people run in casual play are still more loaded than the sorts of decks you're proposing. and just as a last note sort of thing, i don't have you pegged as a native english speaker. that may not seem relevant yet, but bear with me. all of the conflict over these forums is conducted through text and the occasional picture. right? and there is only one real language, of which people have hugely varying masteries and familiarities. miscommunications will happen between two well-educated and well-read native english speakers because one of them completely misinterpreted the other, or missed a line of text that put everything into context, or so on. imagine the problem when it's not a two-person discussion, when the people involved aren't all native to the language, and when they don't understand as many of the possible nuances of the words they're saying. put another way, your big walls of text often come across as very aggressive. i don't know if that's intended, but it's how it happens. that helps to set the tone for everyone that responds to you, and even though you may not have wanted anyone to react the way they do, it's a fumbled communication that happens primarily because we have one real communication method and so many different interpretations of it. put an other other way, it often seems to me that the angriest-sounding people on these forums are the ones that don't have english as a native language. that may be an unfair generalization, and certainly there are some mad english-natives too (though then we still get into the discussion of how well they speak it and actually communicate the language, it's not much use knowing the full history of the english language if all you do is grunt) you get where i'm going with this?
Just to clarity: The public decks are unlocked by completing the tutorial. Training games are unranked PvP that can only be played using public decks. Aside from the fact you can't modify or upgrade them, you can play public decks in ranked just like any other of your BGs. They are likely the first decks people will play ranked with.
I was kinda hoping for the swarm deck. I played sunderpede a lot when I was younger, and I loved swarming the map with them. Bugs need love too
Newbies are just going to find the game 10x harder than they already do if theyre not using any of the "crutch" spells, especially as the vast majority of them are meta, not to mention every other man and his dog are using these "crutches". Im sure you said at some point to take ur head out ur ass and look around to someone, well i give you the same advice.
