Faction Bonuses - Scale Down?

Yes, ease or learning is totally why I am pushing for a flat value. No ulterior motive here.

Actually though, I would disagree. Percent values make things harder to calculate, but actually make power much easier to understand. The dynamics around flat values are more obtuse.

 

Why are this ones same and not the others? shouldn't we change them all and not some.

 

Maybe, but I do not see them as OP.

 

haha true, which is why its notably unrealistic. However, scaling down the bonuses has at least SOME interaction with champ design for past champs so they would be getting some redesign regardless correct? If they idea is to keep them, but at a much less noticeable impact then you are on the right track. Its just whats that really going to change? You are still going to run into the same power level issues and design issues. The same cries about pre nerfing or worthless bonuses, and splits will continue to have a pretty significant leg up in regards to utility/options and bonuses, font or otherwise in certain match ups.

Anyway, just my ideal solution but again I'm sure its one of many options that could work.

 

Just to step in again...point being it affects more things then defense does...so that is where the access to abilities that mitigate damage would come in. Having more or cheaper access to things like tough, regen, or any number of new/old abilities m not listing could again easily make up for the removal of the bonus. Essentially its taking the bonus from a hidden floating ability and replacing it with a number of different abilities/combinations that are on the champs in different values. Instead of draksars walking around with 2 def + whatever ability they may or may not have ( at full price)+ the bonus, you have draks with higher then average def( whatever that is) and either cheaper or more/more options for the defensive ability ( maybe stronger abilities then others as well ala higher ranks?). Just an example though.

 

FS could be a refund (maybe CD reduction as well with a lower refund) on spells (non-champ runes as well?) to as much as 40% or something more "abusable" (read: fun) like:

30% extra Nora gen from non font/Avatar/globe sources.

So Marsh Song gives 13 a turn. FS as a faction doesn't have much Nora gen, but their theme could be efficency at creating it. This would arguably be more balanced than pure Nora gen, as people can run anti-Nora runes (backlash) to limit ist effect (like you would run anti melee/range vs UD/KF) while FS could actually think of ways of using their bonus rather than just "having" it.

 

I dislike this idea in general. Mainly because all of the champs in this game have been pre-nerfed in accordance to their faction bonus. You can argue it all you want but tell the ud champs, the damage faction, that their 7 base damage is in no way a pre Nerf. Or kfs 5 SPD champs that aren't runnable outside of ff kf. So unless you're planning on going through every champ and making them all have stats that don't take their faction bonus into account I'd say leave it alone.

 

Maybe we can agree that +5 hp is worse than +2 def?

 

Please dont do this. Every faction becomes almost the same the weaker the faction bonuses become. Having the bonuses makes the factions fun and changing things because of the sake of balance is a bad idea. Thats my opinion. If you want balance, balance maps and the champions that are too strong. Not the faction flavor.

 

Just an idea: Why not remove the faction bonus entirely and give the shrines an ability that gives an global buff to champions/runes to the according faction. This ability could start on cooldown to even the fields at the beginning of the game. The abilities could be more easily tweaked in duration/cooldown in terms of balance. I don't like the power turn aspect of it, but this depends on the buff. The buff would be a global, so newly deployed champs would benefit from it.

Some ill-considered examples to clarify the idea, please don't discuss on actual numbers:

All Shrine faction abilities start on CD 5, the shrine looses 10 HP on usage.

• FS: You gain for every rune from faction deployed 3 nora at the end of your turn for the next 4 turns. (CD: 10)
• ST : All champions from faction gain 5 max HP and are healed for 5 HP. (CD: 8)
• IS: For the next 5 turns all champions from faction receive 5 damage reduction from spells and are Shielded for 2 turns. (CD: 10)
• KF: All champions from faction gain a rank of Reflexes (melee champs) and a rank of Evasive (ranged champs) and Hit And Run for the next 3 turns. (CD: 10)
• UD: All champions from faction gain 1 AP and 4 damage for champs with max range of 2 or less for the next 5 turns (CD: 10)
• SL: All champions from faction gain Tough 3 for the next 5 turns. (CD: 9)
• FW: All champions from faction on cooldown have their cooldown reduced by 4, you gain 5 nora per affected champion. (CD: 8)
• SP: For the next 3 turns the nora cost for champions from faction is reduced for the number of deployed real champions. (CD: 6)

 

I think ST should be more like 6/3

 

Actually to steal from @pixniri, I like the idea of KF FF bonus being something like reflexes as opposed to range damage. Maybe Rank 3 FF and Rank 1 split. It would be beneficial to all KF champs then and also makes sense with KF "speed".

 

Please dont give FW a backloaded bonus.
Every single other faction currently has (and will with the new suggestion) something tht helps them either kill opposing champions, Keep own champions alive or generate nora up front.
FW has and will have a backloaded bonus that is only beneficial when their champions are killed. A faction bonus that require you to lose champions is not a real bonus.

I know i should not care since i stopped playing but I cant bear the thought of FW once again is going to be screwed out of having a real and meaningful faction bonus.

 

I like FW's current bonus. Backloaded not only suites the faction, it's a great excuse to make it stronger than the other bonuses. Concerns about a bonus that is insubstantial to the game and more flavorful than functional are well founded, and have been true in FW's past. In Pox's present state, however, I feel that the faction bonus is weak but viable. It benefits and rewards and particular avenue of play that aids in defining the faction. Other players may find that avenue frustrating to play and to play against - I've met plenty who do - but it is not an aesthetically or mechanically bankrupt idea. It provides a particular thematic and material benefit to FW right now, a benefit the particular nature of which I would hope is perpetuated in future modifications.

 

Scale em down greatly, I say.

In the beginning factions where kinda like a theme, and the faction bonus the racial. With the rune count we have now, I think we should let factions just be a collection of runes from the same lore area and who are connected by lore and let the individual themes take care of their own bonuses.

That would put a hurting on meta decks, but so be it. The tremendous utility you gain from having access to the entire faction to build your deck should come at a price.

And pain the splits even further for double that utility offering no faction bonus.

TL; DR
Reduce the faction bonuses greatly in influence, disallow them in splits.

 

Agreed wholeheartly with Baskitbro, and since he said what I was thinking I wont derail any further.
However, if this has to be done, Sokobro, you have to take the lead on this and just disregard comments like ("but then melee KF and UD range wont have bonus") or whatever.
Dont revamp the whole thing (cause honestly this playerbase cant have another one), but to this: take the comments into consideration, use your gut instinct and just go with it.
We have delayed changes for far too long under the excuse that we couldnt reach an agreement.

Edit: also, you did like my idea of DMG boost for ranged units in KF huh? Good.

 

Scaling them back is fine, but I think an abolitionist attitude towards them is severe. Toning them down gives the design space some room to breathe, but I would hate to asphyxiate factions on those grounds. If these are going to be trimmed and modified, what is in the opening post looks like a fine draft. I endorse keeping split bonuses.

 

I love this idea!

 

For Minotaurs it could be something like dimension doors have preordained!