I am pretty sure you are wrong about, but you are using statistics, so how can I argue? Wait! Wait! Are you a statistician?
Just the old 2 cents: 1st cent - Being active on forums means nothing to measure a person knowledge of the game. 2nd cent - Doing good at the game does not means that you have the slightest clue about how to balance the game. If anything, it means you dominate the mechanics or identify and overuse overly efficient runes(or both). As for my personal perception and opinion regarding this topic, +1 AP per turn and extra AP cap are the best bonus. Range is OP. KF is a range prevalent faction with the best bonus. Right now KF BGs are based on overbuffing board wise, which makes every unit but the support one more efficient(but wait, the buffer is being buffed, which means it will probably be overefficient also).
Oh, I completely agree with this. And if they are collecting these sorts of statistics (I really hope they are) then they probably had a firm basis for their decision to nerf AA. And frankly, I would rather have a rune be shoeboxed and then buffed later to come back into playability than just be completely oppressive for an extended period of time. That sort of dominance makes people quit games because they are tired of dealing with it. I know I was tired of dealing with it, and did not play ranked for at least a month because of that fatigue. Yeah, and every faction can point to runes like this. It is simply part of having a competitive dynamic game. Even with no nerfs/buffs new runes can make old runes not worth playing anymore. You just have to roll with it otherwise you will make yourself angry/crazy.
Well if they made it by statistics, they could easily find a balance after some balance rounds where runes are neither "goodstuff" nor "shoebox" now it seems it always jumps between these two for some runes.
In terms of damage making, +1 speed gives about 10% additional dmg (see old thread for logic) , if average dmg is 10, it means +1. UD bonus of +4okn other hand, if average is 10, gives additional +40%. Of course speed can be used for more things than just killing champs, but still this is a very important part of the game. Besides ap can be gained by many ways more easily for other factions than kf. So yea i dknt think kf bonus is so OP like some posters try to make it look like.
It is more complicated than that, unfortunately. Statistics are not going to be able to magically find the right point for any particular rune with a game as nuanced or as complicated as Pox Nora. It can help pick out which runes are a problem or are perhaps used too much, but more is always going to be needed, which is why you see the results we get.
10% additional damage? Let's do the math. This is ignoring the fact that with a higher speed you can get in position to make an attack that may not have been possible with a lower speed. Given: start with 0 AP Given: champ has 10 damage Results are displayed Round:Turn Damage:Total Damage: AP Remaining Speed 5: 1:10:10:2 / 2:10:20:4 / 3:20:40:1 / 4:10:50:3 / 5:20:70:0 Speed 6: 1:10:10:3 / 2:20:30:1 / 3:10:40:4 / 4:20:60:2 / 5:20:80:0 Speed 7: 1:10:10:4 / 2:20:30:3 / 3:20:50:2 / 4:20:70:1 / 5:20:90:0 Speed 8:1:20:20:0 / 2:20:40:0 / 3:20:60:0 / 4:20:80:0 / 5:20:100:0 I found it interesting that after 5 rounds of just attacking, all four speeds have 0 AP left, which makes it easy to compare at the end of 5 rounds. Speed 5 made 7 attacks in 5 rounds. We'll use this as our baseline. Speed 6 made 8 attacks in 5 rounds. This is 1/7th or 14.3% better than speed 5. Speed 7 made 9 attacks in 5 rounds. This is 2/7th or 28.6% better than speed 5. It is 1/8th or 12.5% better than speed 6. Speed 8 made 10 attacks in 5 rounds. This is 3/7th or 42.9% better than speed 5. It is 2/8th or 25% better than speed 6. Finally, it is 1/9th or 11.1% better than speed 7. So as you said, from a straight damage aspect, the KF bonus is not as good as the UD bonus. I don't have the time to do it now, but I'd like to see what the numbers are if you have to move 1,2,3 space(s) before making your first attack of the round.
Another thing on kf faction bonus. SOK said 1 speed is worth 8 nora. SP get 12% of nora cost back, thats about 8 nora too. FS get 6 nora per turn, considering over the game prob on average u play a bit less than once per turn, so it seems at least for these three factions the kf bonus is quite balanced. And sl gets 20% dmg reduction, this together with ud +4/40% dmg are both more powerfull than kf one if converted to dmg (kf +10% rougly). So if they prenerf kf and let it be considered in cost, kf bonus is eqivalent more or less to sp and fs. If they prenerf but dont let it be considered in cost and also prenerf sl and ud simolar, still us and sl bo uses are better. If they only prenerf kf but not ud and sl and not consider nora cost reduction, also kf one is less good. So in cknclusion, i thimk we can see kf bonus is well balanced or weaker than other comparable faction bonuses, even if they consider nora cost reduction when prenerfing kf.
i was making thse approximations in my head. I was only talking about difference between 6 and 7 speed, as this seems most typical one. In your example, it gave 12.5%. I was rounding this down to around 10%, considering most champs have defense too which will reduce the advantage of multiple attacks sliglty. If you compare 6 speed +1dmg to 7 speed, with 1 defense, you get: 8×(11-1) vs 9x(10-1), that is 80 vs 81 dmg. So +1 speed is about same effectiveness as +1 dmg. Of course this plays out slightly different on a high vs low base dmg champ, high vs low base speed etc, but these approximations should give very good ideas anyway.
He're's Speed 6 with +1 damage vs Speed 7. You're correct that they're just about the same. Def is harder to take into account as you're adding another variable, target HP. Speed 6: 1:11:11:3 / 2:22:33:1 / 3:11:44:4 / 4:22:66:2 / 5:22:88:0 Speed 7: 1:10:10:4 / 2:20:30:3 / 3:20:50:2 / 4:20:70:1 / 5:20:90:0
Well he has a point devs/mods are corrupted. Another example of devs/mod corruption was how they deleted my logics which benefitted the community's logic and gave people new ideas about how to better poxnora either through text or gameplay. Also their was a post that completely denounced me that was up for an entire day. Only reason it was removed was because I had to personally talk to a dev AND then I had to call him out for not addressing the situation AND only then was it deleted. Mods as well as devs are indeed corrupted and biased.
You mean if one champ moves back and one moves front each round? Like 6 speed becomes 3 and 7 becomes 4? In this case, 3 vs 4, simply gives the kf one extra attack each 5th turn, so it will be +20% instead, still weaker than ud bonus but in line with sl dmg reduction. But this is not so likely as we have the diengagement rule. So for melee, its not so effective to keep steppping back, even if u have 1 more speed. So u could say for a pure ranged fight, theoretically kf could have 20% advantage and for melee 10%. Given that u step back each round in the ranked one, which is not so practical most of the time as u need to stay within a certain area like defending a font etc. In conclusion we could say kf speed bonus is comparable to a 10-20% damage increase depending on the base speed, base damage and movements possible etc.
I adjusted this to show how many AP are being used for attacks, which shows the bigger advantage that is gained by higher speed, the ability to move and attack. I agree that it is rare that you will move and attack every round, unless you have mobility, but it is also rare that your unit will be totally stationary and spending all AP on attacks. At the end of each line I put the % gain over the previous line. AP for attacking 1: 0:00:00:1 / 2:00:00:2 / 3:10:10:0 / 4:00:10:1 / 5:10:10:2 AP for attacking 2: 0:00:00:2 / 2:10:10:1 / 3:10:20:0 / 4:00:20:2 / 5:10:30:1 200% AP for attacking 3: 1:10:10:0 / 2:10:20:0 / 3:10:30:0 / 4:10:40:0 / 5:10:50:0 66.6% AP for attacking 4: 1:10:10:1 / 2:10:20:2 / 3:10:30:3 / 4:10:40:4 / 5:20:60:0 20% AP for attacking 5: 1:10:10:2 / 2:10:20:4 / 3:20:40:1 / 4:10:50:3 / 5:20:70:0 16.6% AP for attacking 6: 1:10:10:3 / 2:20:30:1 / 3:10:40:4 / 4:20:60:2 / 5:20:80:0 14.3% AP for attacking 7: 1:10:10:4 / 2:20:30:3 / 3:20:50:2 / 4:20:70:1 / 5:20:90:0 12.5% AP for attacking 8:1:20:20:0 / 2:20:40:0 / 3:20:60:0 / 4:20:80:0 / 5:20:100:0 11.1%
The speed bonus is balanced not to give so much advantage in combat basically with that first attack cost 3 ap and second 5. If both woild cost the same, speed would be a bit more important. So for a multi attack unit, higher speed is more effective. Basically as long as each u it can make at least ine attack each round, using the 3 ap attack, speed is not so effective advantage in combat. Then the additional ap saved can only be used for the second 5 ap attack now and then.
I don't even know how you were rounding it in your head, but 7 over 6 is 1.16(6), for it to be 10% it would have to be 11 over 10. If all speed was ever used for was attacking, then on average KF champions would do 16.(6)% more attacks. 2 extra damage that UD gets on ranged champions earns Bloodbow Infantry precisely 16.(6)% more damage as well. UD bonus is obviously higher for melee champions, but then you are ignoring: - speed affecting font capturing and positioning. - extra 2 AP storage FF KF gets that greatly extends threat range of any champion (a 6 speed champion in any faction can move 2 spaces and double tap, a 6(7) speed champion in KF can move 4 spaces and double tap) - while the average might not be that impressive, being able to double tap more often means you get a higher potential to one-round champions. In other words, polltroy, stop doing math, you are bad at it.
Hey that would be a pretty fine comparison if AP was used only for combat in this game. Meanwhile for dumb stuff like positioning, threat range and capping fonts, damage is useless. You'll get it eventually. Or not and keep on dropping the wisdom.
Im sorry but this is incorrect. Reason for this being incorrect is that each attack does not cost the same ap, normally first attack cost 3 ap, second 5. So the 1 ap gives you 1 extra attack each 5th turn. How many % dmg that actually turns out to be depends on the average amount of other attacks besides this extra attack the champ does. For a 2 vs 3 speed champ, your way of calculating would hold, otherwise not.
