Just asking you guys about a couple of things that I feel I have noticed during my time playing this game. I would appreciate you did help me with this. So, let's start with the shorthened list. 1.-General Low damage: Contrary to the popular belief, we are oddly the faction with the strongest beaters based on stats and other bonuses. Up until 2 years ago we got our first Battlemaster unit, which by then everyone but us had lots of stackable bonuses to easily turn their <60 nora champs into >12 DMG beaters. When I look at other factions with champs with similar nora cost and role, and compared them to us, we are usually at disadvantage on the melee side. For example, plenty of champs in other factions uses base 12 damage, when it is a bit of luck that we get something with over 8 base damage for the same costs. I would understand that we get that to make up for our bonus, but it´s hardly the case to anyone else. For example, a 60 nora ST champ can easily get +10 hp or a tota of 50-60 hp, have over 11 damage, and still costs 60. An UD champ for the same role and price will usually have 12 damage, but ony 40hp. 50hp if he's luck. That last part explains of why are experienced players recommending to add the champ with the most life rather than the one with the cool abbilities, high damage, but lower health. Now, that says something about it. 2.-Higher nora cost still left us as a disadvantage on the same fields. Most of times: Only a handful of themes seems to be quite effective, nora-wise. And usually they also mimic snowballing of other factions, and usually have a strong synergy between them, and a good ol' beating to the face. However, those are very specific themes with very little variety to it, such as fire, minos, and Imps. Which racial bonuses and base stats and abbilities make up for what most of the "UD undivided" has by default. Otherwise, outside those racial themes, a costly unit is still at disadvantage against an unit with the same cost in matters of synergy, playability, and stats. Let's remember, many other factions got champs with over 16 damage, plus other buffs. Also, they can cover several many roles at once. Our usually work for one thing, and that thing only. Unless you elevate their cost by choosing more varied abbilities. 3.-Melee? Nice try, Maxxarek, nice try. Ok, when I mentioned fire, minotaurs, and Imps, I didn't meant they were any proficient at melee. Fire is insane because of extra fire damage using the Ember Wasp bomb, Tinder Box, plus many other options in a similar fashion to FS poison. Also, it's the alt damage with the most inmunities and resistances outside their home faction. However, when talking about melee, many of our champs won't stand a face-off against a meele beater from other factions. Specially because when these champs are backed up by plenty of bonuses to counter-act basic, same-type, attacks. I would have loved to see more melee-oriented skills, and melee prevention skills used a lot by our champs. Specially when, lore-wise, they are meant to be resilient due to a life of hardships, and lava rivers, and absurdly dangerous wildlife running wild throughout the deeps. But for the most part, we barely get things that describe this, to give us an advantage in our "prefered" battle style (rush, melee, anti-range) 4.-Anti-rage too? You don't know when to stop, eh, Maxxie? To be honest, there are far more champs with Evasive and Ellusive outside UD than we have Arrow Eater and Demon Shields. Demon Shielding things ain't no longer a vialable strategy because everybody else also got their own version of Shatter. And our "other" options for range control aren't any good, either. Mindslicer Obelisk is never used, Breath of Ash is rarely used. Other more unorthodox "options" such as Shadow, Smoke Cloud, and Coward's Reach are never used. Maybe because they are easily counterable, and very unpredicatable. Not even Pincushion is a popular rune anymore. What!? 5.-Poor movement, except for cow people. Demonvein got the chance to attack more times, allowing for a rush turn, then a brawling turn. However, and with the debuff of Beacon: Demon (our trademark middle-finger against pretty much everything) when looking back at FS, and KF, we see a lot of champs on their side with several base ways to ignore obstacles, and to do some nasty quick moves. We don't have that unless you play Spiders. We suffer a lot from terrain restrictions where many other meta factions thrive simply because a tar pit, a pit, or a bunch of snow slow us down. And Bok are not yet a theme. And Imps...well, they are fine, but still. The thing is that the only way we can beat something is to have an unimpeded straight line to move through which most maps doesn't have. But others surely got plenty of ways to ignore this restriction Lore-wise our guys live in all sorts of cavernous low-visibility environments. Why isn't your average hellspawn capable of climbing a hill by default? Or ignore Blind? Also, I noticed several of flavour texts make reference to "summoning rituals" and other kinds of magical methods to spawn all kinds of horrors against the surface duelers. Should't we have, like, more Beacon: UD at least? Teleportation-granting abbilities maybe? C´mon, you have to be a dimension travelling cow people to do that? In the surface everybody's got it like you could simply read it in a 10-step book at their local library. 6.-We still need to exploit benefits over dying champs and damage dealt. That is something that every UD player worth his salt knows. We take benefist from our dying champs, 4 actually. Nobody ever uses the other "You are expendable" spells. And for a reason, except for Flame Siphon, Sacrifice, Avenging flame, and Retribution, we don't get many benefits from something suddenly stopping breathing. Another thing, LORE. Lore insists that death and injuries are a big thing in the underdeeps, like some kind of inside-joke only UD dwellers know about. So we still haven't got our own brand of pain & brawling-induced synergies? 7.-As time passes by, we become more split dependant. It's true. The best UD bgs I have seen are splits. And they are also the most imaginative ones. SP/UD fire. FW/UD vampyres, and stitched. ST/UD Thirst for Battle. KF/UD range/stealth. And many others. So far, the most imaginative, and effective FF UD bg I have seen is the Indirect damage bg which makes everything being played to cause direct damage to your opponents shrine. And stop counting. We keep getting stuff that pretty much demands your average UD player to be veteran-class strategist in order to figure out how to take the most advantage of a given rune. Otherwise, FF and melee, the stuff promoted at the game´s website is unreliable.
I would like to add lack of diversity UD still have poor diversity of abilities compared to other faction and the worse part of it is that every new expansion we have almost always gives us the short end with poor champions abilities example mark of orsarius or we end up with super OP champs like voidraker but get super nerfed until she unappealing to use
i have been thinking this for a while, we actually are not that good at melee anymore. this is why i have been using gahlroon again as he actually still hits like a firking train with 7 spd. its the damage that we cant take tho that is the problem more than what we deal. this is why guardians are so popular as you need them to be able to keep the beaters alive (i know they're good anyway but i dont think they would see so much play if the health was higher). gedden always said that any stat was considered in isolation to the faction bonus but i dont think that it is. less of a fuss has been created over it but we have actually had ours nerfed more than any other faction. ST still get full 10hp whilst our range damage went from 5 to 2 which is huge. I am not arguing that it was an error but that i agree entirely with mak that they seem to be pulling our punches. and i wanna punch, with a demon fist.
It absolutely is not. We routinely get champions with low damage, whose numbers only hit 10-12 damage after the faction bonus has taken place.
Even if we count champs with base 10-12 damage, we still get less. As they cost a lot, but rarely match another champion of the same price.
True. Then people complain about champions like Pincushion, but the fact is that the Underdepths faction entirely relies on champions like this to fight against the current meta.
complaining about pincuchion makes me lol. he has been exactly the same since his inception. people just need to find something to ***** about and go for him because they lose to him. silly non UDers
Interesting. Don't agree , but then again i haven't and won't be playing for a while. Looked over some runes in my UD pool right now , there are still great nora cost efficient champs to be run. i played every faction before i quit , and a lot of the themes. UD is different for sure. when playing most factions i enjoyed the classic battle tactics , having some front line and lots of backline; UD has some backline as it stands , nowhere compared to other factions but it exists and thats fine because UD is also a completely different style. UD is basically that (Lets use basketball?) team that really isn't that great from long range (3 pointers), but has great inside game. What you're trying to do here is play around long range shots, when you should really be focusing on your inside game. ( Sorry if this made no sense what so ever ) ( To simplify away from basketball references. Stick to what you're good at rather then do what you can't) Happy poxing
I don't think that there is an inbalance, I lose just as much with other factions, its just that I think we are not the supreme beater faction we used to be. champs are very fragile. we have a lot of dirty tricks and 'inside game' so I'm not complaining (except againt pincushion nerf cries) its just interesting to note how we have changed and I do also think that they take the UD bonus into account when making champ stats. also yes we do have some hella efficient champs so maybe my point falls flat...
Yes, it's true. With Blood Magic, you can easily ignore NKD which, for a melee faction is a problem. But I don't think everybody likes to play BM only. Or Fire only. Or Imps given the example. Yes, we have efficient champs, but we still might need like 14-15 other champions besides Grimlic, Ashen Maiden, Ember Wasp, and splits with other factions if you really want a full nice bonus.
did mindstorm get buffed recently? I saw someone use it (juni iirc) and realized just how great it actually is.
UD has too much physical damage. priestess nerf was bs, and needs better ranged champs. Also mindstorm is very strong, especially in ff UD. I use at least 1 in splits and 2 in ff. It sets the targets ap to 0 and does 25 damage over its full duration for only 35 nora. The only good UD ranged champ that isn't a stitch or harb is bloodbow and she has ammunition.
disagree. we are the melee faction, theres plenty of alt dmg. priestess nerf was difficult but she is still very usable. we don't need better range champs we are UD. we need melee champs or anti range, are you sure you a UD player? smells like KF...
