Don't you think mirefolks need some adjustment?

Discussion in 'Forglar Swamp' started by urgoth16, Jul 2, 2015.

  1. Kaziken

    Kaziken I need me some PIE!

    I'm going to post a writeup about units I'd like to see changed. Placeholder post.
     
  2. Ohmin

    Ohmin Forum Royalty

    Why not?

    Note, I'm not talking about Semi-Aquatic.
     
  3. themacca

    themacca Master of Challenges

    they already have runnable stats as is. and aquatic is something like a -15 modifier or something like that. they already get 1 additional speed from that they shouldnt be entitled to more stats outside of that
     
  4. Ohmin

    Ohmin Forum Royalty

    Their speed is highly conditional however. So not only do they have mostly-Lumbering, but they also have a 5 HP per turn loss when not in water.

    But hey, sure, let's go through and look at them in more detail. I admit I've mostly been concerned with some specific things and not gone through them all to see if they are, on average, okay-o.

    Tadpole: 40 Nora for 6/6/1/0/34 Sans abilities (including Aquatic) Most Moga with similar stats are 30 nora sans abilities (including Bound). Doesn't see play out side of being a Summons.

    Jellyfish: 38 nora for 10/6/1/0/38. Reasonable... probably. Does not see play.

    Hydraxor: 58 for 14/6/1-2/1/56. Reasonable, considering 2x2 discount. Probably sees the most play as an Aquatic.

    Stalker: 45 Nora for 10/6/1/1/47, actually plenty reasonable, held back by a bad matchup of abilities but Aquatic buffs wouldn't help. Sees a very small amount of play.

    Mirevixen: 65 Nora for 8/6/4-7/0/35. Not sure if reasonable or not (assuming yes for now, probably a little high), as there aren't many units with that kind of range, but is primarily a support rune. Compared with Chained Fae it's terrible on stats, but I suspect manual modifiers are at work there... I'm just not sure how many and how much between the two runes. Sees the second most play, though a large part of it (and Stalker) are due to Mirefolk specific buffs.

    Razorfin: 58 Nora for 14/8/1/0/30. That cost is high for those stats, but SPD may not be a linear 8 point increase (specifically, 7>8 SPD may be treated as a great deal more expensive than 6>7 SPD). Doesn't see competitive play, but is probably the thing most people get excited about when it comes to using Mentor or Evolve. Is unique in that it provides it's own Water, and thus is never at risk of losing HP from Aquatic, and will always have high SPD and Mobility (and any ATK/DEF buffs that were reinstated. This may justify it's relatively high cost... maybe. Though it's also worth noting it never saw play before the nerf to Aquatic, in spite of this.

    Shock Pomfret: 55 Nora for 13/6/1-3/1/38. More reasonable than Razorfin, mostly because of the DEF. This unit is Unique in that it has Flight, which inhererntly bypasses the Lumbering portion of Aquatic, though it does not avoid the HP loss, and of course would not gain stats while outside of water. Due to Flight, it sees more use than most, but still does not see regular play. Part of this undoubtedly comes from Bolt, which makes it hard to control where the fish lands, with the HP loss and low HP, that makes it very easy to kill, but this is an issue unrelated to stats, and buffing Aquatic wouldn't help, as with Stalker. Sees no play but was strong historically.

    Swamp Octopus: 46 Nora for 12/6/1/1/48. Less reasonable than Stalker, considering 2x2 nature. Does not see play, though certainly part of that is being saddled with the horrible ability: Rapid Attacks.

    Turtle Rider: 39 Nora for 4/6/1/2/56. Still a little on the high side, considering 2x2 nature. Does not see play. Boghopper Rider is however extremely over-priced, which is a contributing factor, but it highly doubt it'd see play even with a 10 nora reduction on that ability.


    Feeding Frenzy Fish: 5 DMG each, don't think we care about the rest of the stats I forget the precise number of hitpoints (5 base?) which matters only kind of. Hippos get 9 each, for a total of 27 minus 3x DEF plus any localized buffs (Banner, Bravado, whatever) if you don't get Charge off. Fish are 25 minus 5x DEF, as well as greatly more restricted no Charge (which extends range), and requires water or will end up Lumbering, and likely to kill themselves before even if they can get away temporarily.

    For all those restrictions, for the lower damage, being the same price as Hippos is unreasonable, even if Hippos were to be considered slighly over-efficient as a spell. It's true that Fish can get more out of Banner, but even that puts them at 30 minus 5x DEF vs. 30 minus 3x DEF (again, assuming no Charge, which is unlikely). Battlemaster might make it more reasonable but that's a heck of a lot more you're investing into this thing.

    Giving the Aquatic Bonus would get them to 35 (40 w/ Banner) minus 5x DEF, which would be much more reasonable considering restrictions, particularly since there's a decent chance, pending the situation, that the Fish in question would land outside of water and thus not get the DMG boost anyway.

    Certainly however a cost reduction to the spell would also solve that "problem", should Aquatic not be buffed.


    EDIT: Forgot Wavecrusher, but considering it's nature not sure it matters. For the sake of completeness however:

    68 Nora for 14/4/1-3/3/75 Reasonable or over-efficient, even considering 2x2 nature and the very low SPD. (Dem HPs yo). Sees play, including sometimes in non-Aquatic focused decks (provided there's still significant water and/or AP generation). Is generally considered more like a spell. Is Unique in that it both generates it's own water and "bypasses" the Lumbering portion of Aquatic via Deep Dive. Is one of 4 units with "Stationary" which suspect is often accompanied by manual modifiers (see comments on Chained Fairy comparison above).
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2015
  5. TheBulwark

    TheBulwark I need me some PIE!

    I agree and have posted that same proposal before
     

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