A major flaw in the businessmodel

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by BurnPyro, Jul 19, 2015.

  1. BurnPyro

    BurnPyro Forum Royalty

    The collectible part of PoxNora. But most of all, the fact that the collectible aspect is the only source of income.

    As long as you're only able to buy runes, there will always be a huge barrier. For new players, returning players and even older players. There are no cosmetics, save a few reskins you can't buy. The current version has a lot in common with a subscription model. You find yourself almost forced to drop the cash every expansion to keep up. Every midterm you have to buy a couple of packs.

    But heres the kicker, even then you're not even close to owning a decent part of all runes out there. Sure you can play one or two factions, but limitations to runes could mean less time played as you'd get bored faster.

    Start selling reskins, extra avatars, icons for in the lobby, whatever. If this takes off, start decreasing the cost of runes and throw older runes at players like sweet candy.

    I'm convinced that if it was easier to get (all) runes, more new players would join and older players would get bored less often. Games like csgo and league have shown how crazy people get over cosmetic stuff. They'll be dropping that cash on stuff they want, not stuff they need.

    Just a thought @Sokolov
     
    Mr.Knabber, DarkJello, Goyo and 14 others like this.
  2. Vote Kanye 2020

    Vote Kanye 2020 Better-Known Member

    Sell name changes for the love of god, it's simply to do and tons of people want them.
     
    D4rkSteel, DarkJello, bambino and 6 others like this.
  3. IMAGIRL

    IMAGIRL Forum Royalty

    Agreed. I've said as much before. There may have been a time where random packs brought some measure of joy, but the way to access runes needs to change. At they very least Faction, or Wraith/Protectorate packs should be sold. I'm not in favor of a single rune store. However; if a single rune store would lower the cost of packs, I could live with it.
     
  4. Xirone

    Xirone I need me some PIE!

    Reskins of the Harbies, wearing dirty potato sacks and shaved heads, would be a nice way of having a poor man's Harbie.
     
    BigToastie, DarkJello, Goyo and 4 others like this.
  5. Bellagion

    Bellagion I need me some PIE!

    Yep. This game is still selling packs as though this were the first edition of a ccg. There are thousands of cards at this point. You just can't get the cards you need to make the decks you want randomly. Even physical card games allow you to buy specific expansions and have legally sanctioned dealers for individual cards.

    We NEED a major change to the marketplace. Sure you can get a couple more cards per pack than in HS, but this game is so subdivided into factions/themes at this point that the effective ability to build a deck is much, much lower.
     
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  6. MEATMAN

    MEATMAN Forum Royalty

    it's mind blowing no form of these kind of things have been implemented yet on this game that needs the money and player base.
     
  7. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    For longer-term players, yes. For new players, I think getting actual cards for decking building their hands matters more. That's a big part of the game that takes a big chunk of capital to really unlock. It's also a great part of the game.
     
    IMAGIRL likes this.
  8. Atherhog

    Atherhog I need me some PIE!

    I'd like to colour code my fairy army... that would be nice.
     
    Gnomes likes this.
  9. Lushiris

    Lushiris I need me some PIE!

    Black Fairies.

    But yea, people even but those ward skins in LoL. They are partially invisible ffs.

    I'm not sure it would be a revolution in pox, but I see some people buying these extras as soon as they're out.
     
  10. IMAGIRL

    IMAGIRL Forum Royalty

    Would be nice if we actually owned the free decks we earned.
     
  11. Revengercm

    Revengercm I need me some PIE!

    [​IMG]
    guess who won?
     
  12. stayflyazn

    stayflyazn Devotee of the Blood Owl

    i wonder if sok already has plans in the works o_O there is so much they haven't told us, despite a couple of things
     
  13. LoganMkv

    LoganMkv I need me some PIE!

    Damn, I imagined Sun Blossom twerking her fat butt, and a pimpcorgi.
     
  14. IMAGIRL

    IMAGIRL Forum Royalty

    I swear I lose this image every time I need it. Anyone got Greater Pimpspawn on hand my chance?
     
  15. Runegod

    Runegod I need me some PIE!

    As a new player i fully support this post entirely.

    I often look at the amount of runes and wonder from a collectible point of view and a competitive point of view, how the Firk am i supposed to do either. Here are some things i think they need to do

    1) Faction specific packs should have happened years ago
    2) Avatars with alternate abilities and abilities you can choose i saw someone else post this a while back can't remember who
    3) Mass forge button
    4) More intelligent a.i.
    5) do something with all the damn achievements
    6) increase dow rewards and make it like the top 20 players or so for each faction
    7) Improve 2vs2 because it's a huge lure for new and old players if they can play with friends against other people or hopefully one day a good a.i.

    Good post though @BurnPyro
     
    DarkJello, Goyo, Gnomes and 1 other person like this.
  16. bambino

    bambino I need me some PIE!

    I dont get it either, if were talking reskins, naming runes, etc. nothing balance wise, , whats the problem? clearly people want them, (I'll do a lil shopping), since its digital,, very little overhead, ,, its not like your selling lobsters :)
     
  17. Skatan

    Skatan The King of Potatoes

    As a returning player who was once addicted to buying packs. I have to say one of the alluring things for me in the past was the idea of hitting the magical runes like and especially Lich Kings, which half a dozen of could even be swapped for a Harby. That chance of hitting runes worth so much was quite addictive and gave me the gamblers shake in anticipation before opening up a box. Nowadays I just open and usually think 'meh' a few exos for PoxBox or the sharder maybe one of the many Legs if I'm very lucky. Usually a box = 1 maybe 2 Legs worth of runes. Still fun, bit its lost that thrill.

    The shear amount of runes in total throughout the factions now but the pack size and exo slot remaining the same seems a bit much for a new player. In 2007 when I started playing Pox there was a feeling like it wasn't that extreme to get a couple of most runes. Now I find it enough just trying to get 2 of most runes a single faction.

    I just think opening up the slots to match the ratio of the game a bit better game would give new players a bit more chance of accumulating more runes and wanting to hit even more.
    Plus add a bit of excitement for seemingly impossible (without cash sales) rare runes. 1% chance of hitting an LE rune such as a Harb or Doomball reskin.
    Bring back that pack junky feel haha
    Anyway just my 2 cents from an ex addict who's just an expansion buyer with a little daily grinding for gold nowadays
     
  18. DarkJello

    DarkJello I need me some PIE!

    I concur 100% with the OP!!

    [​IMG]
     
    bambino likes this.
  19. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    I've said various parts of this in other posts, but it is good to discuss these sort of things so players understand where we are at.

    First, let's address the general idea of cosmetics and why have worked well in LoL and CS:GO, etc, and why it might not be viable for Pox. The key to recognize is that both of those games make vastly less money per user than Pox does (League is roughly 1.35 per person, which is extremely low). They can get away with this because they have a massive install base. So even tho relatively few people actually spend, it's still a ton of money. Pox doesn't have that kind of pull. You can argue that it COULD have luxury with a different model, but that might or might not be the case. There are many other hurdles to Pox becoming that kind of game, including the age, genre and feature set of the game. This also means that the ROI for any particular feature or "skin" is much much higher in those games. It doesn't matter whether you are selling to 3000 players or to 3 million, the cost of doing something digital largely remains the same. Note that Skins in particularly is going to be vastly less effective in Pox than a game like League, where you play specific characters. Pox sprites are small, less detailed, and lack a lot of the flair that goes into the cosmetics of other things. They are, however, more similar to gun skins in CS:GO.

    It's always interesting how thinking follows the biggest games, when the reality is they are the anomalies, and these things are constantly evolving. When Pox launched, the model, for PC games, was basically cutting edge in a land of subscription based services. Now, less than a decade later, it is still being used for various TCGs, but the F2P model is on the rise.

    In any case, the point is that something that 2.5 to 5% of players purchase in a game like LoL is simply going to be a more difficult thing to be cost effective in Pox, and is unlikely to ever be a sustainable revenue stream. There is a reason the vast majority of F2P games end up failing, while many indies who sell $4.99 to $19.99 games continue to survive - you need to hit some level of mass for the model to actually be effective.

    As for the retention aspect, it is debatable whether getting all the cards more quickly would increase retention or not. In general, lack of progression mechanics tends to make the life cycle of a product much shorter for players. Think of a lot of great games you have played significantly less time than Pox - at least some of them will be simply because they gave you too much for free (a mistake I have seen indie studios make time and again).

    Lastly, and this is not a jab at anyone here, because I have seen this more in the industry than with players. A lot of ideas sound good, and you can back it with logic and reason, but in general, people vastly overestimate impacts of new features and changes. One thing we do in development is to estimate, and then measure the impact of particular features. For example, I might say, "<new feature> would increase 30 day retention by 2.5%." This allows us to prioritize different features and compare it with the cost of implementation to maximize our time and resources. Then, after a feature is done, we measure the impact and see if it matched our expectations. If not, we try and figure out. In general, people on average will overestimate, and often by significant amounts. This is particularly true of new people to the industry, and we see that kind of optimism here in the forums too. It is easy to believe that X or Y will have a great impact and do a lot of good things, and again, the logic behind those thoughts are generally sound - but the truth of the matter is that the established baseline of a product, particularly an old one, is very difficult to move.

    Side-note: Good Product Managers are extremely valuable and are paid handsomely, mostly because they are able to identify the real impact of changes and not waste resources.

    ~

    Still, Pox IS experimenting and trying to get systems/pipelines in place for these sort of things. It is why the Forge was made (which wasn't a trivial effort), and why Shards are now able to be given out in packs or as rewards. These are all steps necessary to move towards a less pack-centric model. There are also new systems planned to help with this sort of stuff, for example, there is a system called "Skins System" on our "future features" list; this is necessary if we ever really want to actually sell skins. Right now, skins aren't actually skins, and are actually a completely different rune. This creates both internal overhead as well as problems in other areas, including surfacing of actual skins which would impact the viability of such a feature.

    We also recently just sold mid-terms that have a skin-variant (using the pack model still) as an experiment.

    And for those who have been with us a long time, you know that the cost of runes has come down significantly since the early days. And honestly, when we look at the data of most older players, most have a significant amount of the runes or have enough gold/shards to realistic get a lot of runes. Because of this, I feel that our efforts for older players should be more focused on improving the play experience, while new players need ways to be eased into the steep learning curve.

    ~

    Oh, and we are planning on changing the 'free' decks so that when you earn them you actually earn the runes and can edit the deck, but you'd still be able to play the original deck in Training even if you changed the 'earned' one.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2015
    badgerale, GameJack, Gnomes and 3 others like this.
  20. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Oh, and Avatars. Unfortunately, the way they were originally designed makes them very cost ineffective (they have a lot of extra "cool" features and such that just ends up making it hard to make new Avatars). It is something we have to fix before we can really invest a ton of time into more Avatars.
     

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