Potential FS Buffs/Reworks

Discussion in 'Forglar Swamp' started by doubtofbuddha, Sep 11, 2015.

  1. 4NIK8

    4NIK8 I need me some PIE!

    Hummmm... there seems to be a missunderstanding, no one is asking for these runes, or all shoeboxed runes for that matter, to be meta worthy, we are only giving sugestions for them to become usable again.

    From the gaming experience point of view, of course it's worth getting runes out of the shoebox (note, I didn't use the word meta) because it brings diversity to the game and will certainly make it more attractive. It might not generate revenue instantly, since you won't be selling new runes, but in the long run ppl will be more sensible to expend money on a game that offer this kind of diversity and keep them entertained for a longer period of time.
     
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  2. Leadrz

    Leadrz I need me some PIE!

    Nice rationalisation :3
     
  3. Goyo

    Goyo I need me some PIE!

    @Ohmin I appretiate your dedicated reply, but I'm with the guys above. We are not asking nor want to upgrade unused runes to be efficient meta worthy includes.

    All we want is them to not be such a poor choice compared to ALL other choices.

    Of course, once you buff them to aceptable levels, other runes will be at the bottom, slighly pushed down from that buff, but overall, they will be in a better position than these unused rune were before the buff. Am I explaining myself?

    For example, Firk Mindbreaker and Mindweaver are not the most useful Firks out there, they will perform less versatyle than others, or will fill a role less efficiently than other, but they are playable. If you include them because you like it's art, or you like it's design, you will not overpay them.

    In some other cases, like Firk Prophet, you are paying 6N more for Immunity: Psychic which is useless, and his kit of abilities doesn't fit any current developed theme. She could perform good around Paralytic Strike in splits, but other than that, Revere: Hydraxor it's extermely overpriced and underwelming, Premonition doesn't bring too much to the table, and Immunity: Magical doesn't fit his role (it could be cool in combination with the upgrade it replaces).

    Another case is Firk Infiltrator, he has an unpgrade path of stealthed mechanics while having Stealth on base, which increases a lot his cost for little gain, while his second path has random mobility which gets clamped at Shadow Shift for being the best option. Overall, outclassed by Firk Mindbreaker on price and design (the latter has Shadowspawn on base, that makes the choices on Upgrade 2 more viable).
     
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  4. doubtofbuddha

    doubtofbuddha I need me some PIE!

    TBH, since I made this post I played a bit more with firk (mostly before the midterm release). The behemoth was better than I feared and most of what I wanted him to do was dealt with by releasing the mutant. So the changes that sok is suggesting he is going to make (to the neuromancer and the extispicer) are good.

    Mostly I would prefer for there to be less runes that are just outclassed by all other choices (like the neuromancer, firk prophet, and firk infiltrator) and ones with odd/iffy designs (like the neuromancer and corrupted overlord) to be redesigned. Sok had done a great job hitting both of those up so far, but I think highlighting some of the ones that still need more work is worthwhile.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2015
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  5. Ohmin

    Ohmin Forum Royalty

    I've absolutely nothing whatsoever against making suggestions. Rather I think it's a good thing, and it's something I've done quite a bit myself.

    I do disagree with what constitutes "usable" by some of you however. I think a lot more runes are "usable" than people think, but they simply don't fit the metagame (note I'm not just talking about "Meta" BGs, also themes, gimmick decks, etc. that get played), or maybe they do fit but aren't thought of at the time so they're assumed to be bad. Or they might be usable, but there is a more commonly used variant that has an edge somewhere that fits the current meta better (Froblic Bull vs. Hippo Rider for example).

    The champions I listed were, at least from my view, generally ones that specifically seemed objectively below value (though obviously a lot of AoG is intentionally below value because Grow is under-costed, thus high manual modifiers, and no, don't try to tell me that a 4/6/1/1/21 is worth 38-ish Nora, Turtle Rider has better Stats/Cost ratio. Seems weird to not just raise the cost of Grow if total cost really needs to be that high but whatever, if it works, use it).

    It should also be noted that as much as I constantly bug Sok and the devs about it, I don't particularly care about Turtle Rider. It's just been a rune that seems emblematic of weird costing issues. Of course, I'm sure part of that is my ignorance since I don't know the specific formula(s) used, though I learned some of it thanks to data given and obtained by others. But that knowledge is incomplete and likely at least partially incorrect.


    Take the example of Firk Prophet from above. I agree that Revere Hydraxor has generally been underwhelming (it doesn't help that Hydraxor was generally run at the cheapest, so the discount didn't matter much), but the unit is playable. Premonition, Paralytic Strike, Paralytic Feedback, they are all good abilities. And while Immunities might be over-priced compared to how often they are relevant, they can be extremely powerful when their effect is relevant.

    Would she be more generally useful without Immunity: Psychic? Probably. But she'd be situationally less useful in a meta where Psychic damage is common (or Magic Damage, if you choose to forgo Paralytic Strike)

    As for the Firk Infiltrator vs. Firk Mindbreaker comparison:

    They do different things. Adaptation, Range, and Shadowshift vs. SPD and Assassinate. They both Stealth, deal Psychic Damage, and be Firk, but the difference between melee and ranged, the difference between a focus on raw damage and utility, and the ability to easily cross obstacles/chasm and get to odd places (especially as Stealth) is pretty large. It changes how you use them.

    As for the lack of U2 options, having limited Upgrade options has proven to not be that much of an issue as long as what's there is good (Anchorite, Circ. Merchant, etc. have proven to be fairly good in spite of limited options).

    So for me, saying that Mindbreaker outclasses Infiltrator is wrong since they aren't competing for the same slot in the first place. It'd be better to compare Mindbreaker and Extispicer, and even then...

    Or maybe Infiltrator vs. Voidmage (but I think that's a different problem, and again Stealth has value).

    Neuromancer is trash though, sure.

    In my view, Neuromancer used to have a relatively unique quality (Jab to Vuln, etc.) but they were stripped out by nerfs, and they probably went too far.

    Firk Prophet offers valuable abilities with Premonition, P. Strike, and is reasonably harder to kill thanks to P. Feedback. If an expensive Hydraxor ever becomes viable, Revere might not be as bad as it is currently. But the main thing is those first two. What ranged unit offers both of those? Let alone outclasses her as well, within FS?

    With Firk Infiltrator it depends on how much you value Stealth and Adaptation. But I've gone on long enough.

    I put out the disclaimer that I haven't gone into base prices for Prophet Prophet as much as I have for Neuromancer and such, so there might be some weird costing issues there as well that I've simply missed, and if so, fix 'em, but I also think people are looking at things based on what's "playable" now (which means is viable within the meta) rather than things that are actually flat-out outclassed or objectively over-costed.

    Again, it's just my (no doubt abrasive) opinion, and it's not necessarily correct.
     
  6. doubtofbuddha

    doubtofbuddha I need me some PIE!

    I mostly think Prophet is trying to do a bit too much. If she was built around paralysis interactions it might be okay (though the fact you have no control over the ability of other people to trigger the paralaysis effect makes it iffy at best). Actually, now that I think about it more, part of the problem may be that Paralytic Feedback just really isn't good enough/is too expensive. The only unit that has it that sees real play is the Rage of the Circle, and even in that case, it is used despite the Paralytic Feedback rather than because of it. Units that have it as an upgrade path almost universally take other options.

    So the problem isn't that other units offer the same combination she does it is just what she offers really just isn't good. So when I look at "ranged attackers that can offer a real threat in my bg" then you are generally going to pick augur, sniper, tide master, or something along those lines that offers a good kit and ranged damage rather than her bad kit + rage damage for a gigantic (relative) cost.

    Just chopping off Immunity: Psychic would help a bit, as her default kit would no longer be an 85 point investment, but even at 79 points why would you take her over the other options, even in Psychic? She would do what she does for cheaper but what she is doing isn't something that is strong or impactful or interesting at all.
     
  7. Goyo

    Goyo I need me some PIE!

    Here lies our difference of opinion.

    I see champion runes as what they bring to the match as either damage potential or headaches to my opponent (things that impede my opponent of doing things, or make him play in a way it benefits my strategy). With Mindbreaker outclassing Infiltrator in both areas, being both "hide and strike" units.

    I don't believe exact abilities must be matched to fill a role in a strategy, or a purpose slot in a BG. That way, there would be impossible to compare units and there would be a role per each champion in the game (mostly).

    There is no theme where Infiltrator would be a better option than Mindbreaker, nor a theme where both are equally useful to include. Infiltrator to become useful, must get a push on his abilities to properly become "hide and strike" in a way it outclasses raw damage and favors headaches. And we would have two nice runnable not meta champions.
     
  8. Anima26

    Anima26 I need me some PIE!

    It used to be so disgusting to face the crones in Kanen decks with all their Paralytic Feedback bs but nowadays there are a Firk ton of ways to attack a champ without using a basic attack, so PF isnt as much of a deterrent as it used to be. At least in my opinion anyway. It may be that the game has changed in a way that negatively affected PF while the ability itself hasnt been compensated in any way. I genuinely used to hate it with a passion, it was horrible to face 3 or 4 ranged units that all had PF.
     
  9. Ohmin

    Ohmin Forum Royalty

    Premonition also used to be run more often (and PF used to be stronger at 3 turns instead of just 2).
     
  10. Atherhog

    Atherhog I need me some PIE!

    Let's talk about Fire Salaman. He's rubbish, as simple as that.

    Here's my idea.

    8/6/1/2/50
    Base: Amphibious, Fire Eater, Attack:fire
    Upgrade 1: Flame Armor (2) (3)
    Upgrade 2: Flamestrike (1) (2) (3)

    Basically, he gives us a tank option. I'd run him like this if the cost was right.

    Any thoughts?
     
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  11. doubtofbuddha

    doubtofbuddha I need me some PIE!

    I dislike having upgrade paths being entirely centered on one ability. Maybe something like this:

    UP 1: Fire Shield 3, Defender, Provision: Defense
    UP 2: Flame Strike 2, Fire Burst 3, Flamethrower
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2015
  12. Atherhog

    Atherhog I need me some PIE!

    I'm one of these people who think rarity should mean something - not in power, but rather in abilities.

    I'd give all common champs pretty standard upgrade paths tbh.

    Edit: Ignoring the lack of choice on upgrades - do you think it would bring him into play?
     
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  13. doubtofbuddha

    doubtofbuddha I need me some PIE!

    Hey, I edited my post with alternative upgrade path ideas.

    And it would depend on cost. Your version really does not do a lot I find to be interesting in-theme, and with further releases of good salaman I would mostly just end up ignoring him, tbh.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2015
  14. Cydna

    Cydna Forum Royalty

    I must say, Ctharia needs to be buffed. 89 nora for 3-4 range and a shitty Mirefolk ability. Her Mirefolk ability needs to be completely reworked or removed.
     
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  15. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Wait, why is global Impervious shitty?
     
  16. Atherhog

    Atherhog I need me some PIE!

    because it's on your own turn only, which limits the usefulness of it. Apart from cleaning up minefield, it's pretty useless.
     
  17. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    I understand it's situational, but there are plenty of turns where it'd be useful - to go over damaging terrain, to trigger divert/deflect, to clear mine fields as you mentioned.

    Admittedly it, and her, is not my favorite design ever - but that is the case with a ton of Bonds of War runes... because I didnt' do that expansion, lol

    I am ok with just removing Fealty, though it does mean she has no unique in that case, but I guess Regal Presence isn't terrible as a thematic cornerstone.
     
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  18. Cydna

    Cydna Forum Royalty

    See the thing is, in most situations you want her out early for Regal + water gen. Her Mirefolk ability costs the same as Revival and Resurgence, both of which are stronger imo.

    She has solid stats, but a high cost. I just don't think Fealty is worth it at all.
     
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  19. Atherhog

    Atherhog I need me some PIE!

    ^^^ this 100%
     
  20. Tweek516

    Tweek516 I need me some PIE!

    Wait, people see the impervious as the main part of her fealty? I always thought global encouraged was the focus, and was pretty strong.

    However, I do believe she is overcosted and a bit bloated.
     
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