Hello everyone! I'm not sure if you remember me from the previous forum. I had returned to Pox after finding out about the ownership shift. GrabielQ so graciously helped re-ignite my interest in the game by giving me some BG ideas to try out and after lurking the forums, I'm excited to try some other themed BGs. With that short intro out of the way I'd like to speak about some issues that are concerning me. I originally wanted to wait and see how it was going to pan out after the ownership change but decided to post this a bit earlier than intended. As a side note, I have noticed people around these forums like to argue...please don't turn this thread into an argument. I'm stating some things that are concerning me and this is in no way meant to be taken in a negative light, but rather a constructive one. Lets get on with it... This wall of text is mainly going to assess the proposed worth of packs and forging now that runes will no longer be purchasable with gold. Please note: These values are not set in stone and Gedden has stated many times before that they will be subject to change. The analysis will be run just using 10 rune packs. It should also be noted that you save a significant amount by buying boxes. Core Set Packs: Proposed Cost(10): 1,680 - 2,520 Forge Value from Pack: 23.5 (FV = Forge Value) Forge Value/Gold Ratio: 71.5g = 1 FV - 107.2g = 1FV So now that we have our base values we can start to figure out exactly how much gold we'll need in order to craft the runes we want. I'm also going to compare these values to the previous values available in the player rewards store for gold. If you're a bit lost, you should understand where I'm going with this in just a minute... Forge Value of Core Set (This math only applies to Core Packs --> Core Singles): Commons: 5 Obtainable from packs: 4 per pack (If you break down entire pack) Remainder: 3.5FV Value in gold: 357.5 - 536 From here we can see that its possible to over-pay for commons as compared to the old system; 200 per common Uncommon: 12.5 Obtainable from packs: 1 per pack Remainder: 11FV (close to another UC, but no cigar) Value in gold: 893.8 - 1340 From here we can gather that the cost of uncommons has gone up significantly. The price of these used to be 600 in the player reward shop, now the lowest that they'll be (according to Gedden's post) is about 900. That's a 50% increase in price. Rares: 50 Obtainable from packs: 3 packs = 1 rare Remainder: 20.5FV (remember, this is after breaking down 3 packs) Cost of 3 packs: 5040 Value in gold: 3575 - 5360 Huh, this is getting expensive! Lets take a look at the Exotics... Exotics: 250 Obtainable from packs: 11 packs = 1 Exotic Remainder: 8.5FV(after breaking down 11 packs) Cost of 11 packs: 18,480 Value in gold: 17,875 - 26,800 Umm...So. That Vindrax that would have cost you 4K on the old shop will now cost a minimum of 17,875 gold? Summary of Core Set ---> Core Set: So from what I can see, everything costs more than it used to. But in exchange for this inconvenience you get access to every rune as a craftable item. I'm not so sure that the core set should be left this expensive (by comparison to the old core set values). I realize that if you buy Extended Set runes and use them to craft Core Set runes you will get more value. I'll get to that later. Even still, the Core Set feels actually less accessible than it used to be... Extended Set Packs: Proposed Cost: 2,800 - 4,200 Forge Value from Pack: 52 (Over twice as much value when compared to Core Set packs) Forge Value/Gold Ratio: 53.8 = 1FV - 80.8 = 1FV Well this is interesting yet expected. For your gold, you get WAY more FV if you buy extended set packs. *Buying 100 rune packs of the Extended Set will be the way to get the most value out of your gold. I think most people already knew this though. Forge Value of Extended Set (Extended Set ----> Extended Set) Common: 10 Obtainable from packs: 1 pack = 5 Remainder: 2FV (If you compare this value with the Core Set --> Core Set value it has increased by 1) Value in gold: 538 - 808 Uncommon: 25 Obtainable from packs: 1 pack = 2 Remainder: 2FV Value in gold: 1345 - 2020 Rare: 100 Obtainable from packs: 2 packs = 1 Remainder: 4FV Cost of 2 packs: 5600 - 8,400 Value in gold: 5380 - 8080 Exotic: 500 Obtainable from packs: 10 packs = 1 Remainder: 20FV Cost of 10 packs: 28,000 - 42,000 *I realize if you buy a box it will cost less. This analysis is strictly looking at single purchases. In other words, you save up for an extended pack each day for 10 days because you are anxious to open up some runes rather than saving up your gold and getting greater value. Value in gold: 26,900 - 40,400 So i'm just going to let these values speak for themselves. The last analysis will be using Extended Set packs to craft Core Set singles. Extended Set ----> Core Set *This section assumes that you bought Extended Set runes with the intention of breaking them down and crafting Core Set runes. This section mainly applies to newbies. Like myself. Common: 5 Obtainable from packs: 1 pack = 10 Remainder: 2FV Value in gold: 269 - 404 Uncommon: 12.5 Obtainable from packs: 1 pack = 4 Remainder: 2FV Value in gold: 672.5 - 1010 Rare: 50 Obtainable from packs: 1 pack = 1 Remainder: 2FV (I wish there was something to do with 2FV...it would seem people are going to have a lot extra 2's lying around...(this is a joke)) Value in gold: 2690 - 4040 Exotic: 250 Obtainable from packs: 5 packs = 1 Remainder: 10FV Cost of 5 packs: 14,000 - 21,000 Value in gold: 13,450 - 20,200 Well. That took a very long time. I hope you guys find this useful. If it is received well, I will do the same thing but for 100 packs instead of 10 packs. Overall it seems that the cost of individual runes will go up in terms of the Core Set (its hard to make the same assessment about the Extended Set because they aren't all available for gold). However, all runes from the Extended Set will be available which, to some, may be a reasonable trade off for higher priced runes. I will ask that the new owners keep these numbers in mind when assessing the accessibility of the game. I'm unsure of how widely available gold will be or what the rates are going to change to (if they change at all). My greatest concern, after having done all this math is that I don't want this game to feel like a grind. Please...oh please don't make the same mistake as most F2P games before this one and many after it. Make the game feel and play like a game. A full retail game. If I spend 15$ on runes, that's 15$ that could have been Starbound or some other game on Steam. Am I going to get the same entertainment value from 15$ worth of runes that I would get from Starbound? That is yet to be determined. Just please...don't make it feel like a grind. That will turn off so many people and you will have a very hard time retaining the newer players. So many games make this mistake...good, fun games. Specifically, Scrolls comes to mind. They have a very low player-base because of how inherently grindy the game is. Implement systems which are fun to participate in and give out enough rewards (whether it be gold/cards/vanity items) to be worth the time spent on them. Time is arguably the most valuable currency on the planet. It is a non-renewable resource which can be converted into any other currency. Make it worth my time, please. If you want, I'll come up with ideas for new systems that you can put in place, just give me the word. TL;DR: Sorry bro, I just spent around 3 hours typing this. If you can't spend some time reading through it, then don't worry about it.
Your math is confusing, let me try. This is what we were told so far: So with my math: A 10 Rune Core Pack comes with: -6 common = 6FV -3 uncommon = 7,5FV -1 rare = 10FV (with a chance of getting an exo which is 50FV) and it costs: 140/210 Owls or 1680/2520 gold So you pay $1,40/$2,10 for 23,5FV with a chance of it being 63,5FV For a 100 Rune Core Pack: -60 common = 60FV -30 uncommon = 75FV -9 rares (HIGH chances of getting more exos) = 90FV -1 exo = 50FV It costs 1120/1680 Owls or 13440/20160 gold so for 11,20$/16,80$ and being very unlucky with no extra exos you get 275FV A 10 Rune Extended Pack: -6 common = 12FV -3 uncommon = 15FV -1 rare = 25FV and 10% chances of getting an exo worth 150FV 280/420 Owls or 2800/4200 gold so for 2,8$/4,2$ you get 52FV with a chance of 177FV For a 100 Rune Extended Pack: -60 common = 120FV -30 uncommon = 150FV -9 rares = 225FV (with HIGH chances of getting more exos) -1 exo = 150FV it costs 2240/3360 Owls or 22400/33600 gold so for 22,4$/33,6$ and with the bad luck of only getting 1 exo you get 645FV All this numbers are subject to change as the admins already sayd. With the current gold farming values you can farm a 10 Rune Core pack by only doing the daylys and a couple campaings. In 10 days of light farmming (both daylys and a couple games per days) you would be farming $15 worth of core runes. Farmming for 15 days (earning 1500 gold per day) you would be getting 22$/33$ worth of Extended runes. Yes, curent cheap exos will be more expensive to get but expensive ones will be much easyer to get. I don't see the problem with this system. Your problem is that you are comparing the current low exo's cost with the new system. The new system will remove the single rune gold-buyout but will enable the purchase of boxes which come with the warranty of getting at last an exo. If the game is able to provide enought entertainmnt for the new player for at least 15 days until they buy their first box (which i think is too much of a wait to be able to make your own bg) then it will work. Edited: Colors
Imo the new players should be flooded with small rewards(50 gold, a random common, a couple tokens) for their first campaing win, PvP win, ranked win, champ lvlup, etc.. to hook them up. That feels good as a new player.
The math was trying to show how many packs you would have to buy of a certain set in order to craft a C/UC/R/E from the available sets. The gold value calculation is more to show the absolute value of a rune, relative to its FV. In other words, the maximum a rune is worth in gold. The condensed version you've created is most likely easier to read and I appreciate you taking the time to not only write it up, but also color code it! Very nice touch ^_^ I was mainly concerned with the farming and grinding aspect of the game, not really the overall value of the runes. It seems most players (the 100 concurrent that we have) are perfectly alright with the idea, but I don't think if we were to reach 1000 players or so, that they would care too much for the concept of farm farm farm get some runes...so we can farm more. As I've stated in the post, this was a bit premature, but I found some extra time to type it up. Time I'm not so sure I'm going to have in the coming week. I'd like to contribute to the community development and help to give feedback as the game is re-created! Time will tell if the current system is befitting or not, we still haven't gotten a chance to get our hands on it so nothing is conclusive, just observational. I also agree that Pox should start new players off with a large boost. Given how many runes are in the game, it could be quite daunting for a new player to come in and see the options available and think about the time it would take to obtain what they want. The end result should be a fun accessible game, and as long as DoG works towards that goal I think they will be able to grow their community.
The new rune values seem fairly fair. I mean honestly, there are a lot of runes in circulation... if you are forging, you SHOULD be losing value. god forbid it's cost efficient, trade sites would die, and the game would lose a crucial part of it's ethos. I feel like the forge is not meant to be your first resort, it's meant to be that shady guy in the alley that can get you what you want when you really need it. Trade with a human. Trade with decondor. troll the marketplace. don't just instantly assume forging is the first line of purchase.
Hahahaha, I don't think I'll be trolling the marketplace anytime soon. But yes, I understand your point. Normally TCGs such as MTG aren't supposed to acknowledge the fact that there is a 3rd party market. At least that what I've read. So, I wanted to see what the base values would be for players who don't want to venture into the trading jungle. I have already used PoxBox quite a bit, and I appreciate the service, but I also recognize that newer players will strayed away form using it because of the extra hassle. I know one of my friends I tried to get to play a long time ago simply gave up because of how much extra effort you had to go through to get what you wanted. His comment was simply 'Why aren't systems like this already in the game itself?' So what he was speak of was essentially and auction house or something similar. Thank you for your reply and taking the time to state your opinion on the subject.
Most likely because that's what I called them in my original post >.< I was unaware of a standardized name for them until now. Sorry for the confusion!
Eh, the most cost efficient thing listed here pales in comparison to what you get from spam buying the protectorate decks. 200G = 54FV 34000G = 3360FV 34000/200 * 54 = 9180FV Which is triple what you get for the 100 rune pack. I know it won't be available after the transfer, but w/e.
