Which champions do you have a problem with at their cost? When I reviewed all Ferren champs I already did it with roles in mind, so I'd like more specifics as to what your problem with the champions are. And please keep costs in mind. Part of their design is the avoidance of high stat lines (and resulting high cost), I am not really wanting to them a high base damage ranged option. Things like Sunder/Soften, etc. would be ok though. I don't really see them as a Stealth theme, though a few of them can get a splash of it if you desire. What role do you envision a Stealth option Ferren to play in a Ferren deck and how would it help them? They do not have less stats than anything else for their cost. At the same time, as mentioned part of the goal of the theme is that they don't have high costs with high stats. That said, I have added and do want to continue to develop abilities for them that work off their racial - whether it is a direct stat manner will depend on context. For Ferren, I do have an ability upcoming that resets attack chains. Ferrens do have Freezing Aura (which is probably better in terms of applying Ferren Focus than Grip of the Icelord does) and there are equipment that helps apply Frozen/Slowed. I am not sure what you mean by "like you did with Witches." They also have a number of other ways to push the Focus racial in other abilities, though they aren't AOE. An in-theme AOE Slowed would probably be very good. I assume you mean have it apply 2 stacks of Sunder. I will consider it, but I really don't like adding another clause to Focus... (since it already is so wordy). I am sorry you feel this way, but there was a major plan for the theme, and it was executed. I feel that the champions work in a concerted effort towards the racial while maintaining their identity as a theme. You can argue that maybe it's not powerful enough, perhaps, but I don't see how it is a "little bit of this and that" at all, though of course the upgrade system does allow for flexibility and choice. Especially since your suggestions, at least currently, largely just seem to be geared towards wanting them to deal more damage more easily. ~ That said, none of that means the champs can't be improved in some ways! For example, I have never been super happy with the Cloudwisp, but others like Snowspinner seems solid to me, so more specifics on which champions you have issues with and would like them go in a specific direction would help! Note: I am currently doing a pass on ranged champs, so expect some changes to ranged champs across the board which may affect Ferren in some ways. Given that their ranged champs are typically low DMG, I wouldn't expect a ton of efficiency changes, while runes with higher DMG potential at RNG will be less efficient, so indirectly this might help Ferrens also.
Hey Sok, thanks for your answer. I will try to give more concrete feedback later on. I really appreciate your detailed feedback.
Good post sok, in my opinion cloudwisp is one of the few good units in the theme because he already has swap synergy and a way to buff his damage and a small defensive ability with portal dance. He is what I would like to see most ferren geared towards actually, give them more slowing options has to be dealt with care as st already has many ways to slow down opposing champ with deep snow, freeze and similar abilities. Looking forward to the ferren changes though they are a very flavorful and unique theme, kinda remind me of my old crazy imps with them being so original.
I think a criticism of the Cloudwisps is that it pays a bunch of nora for abilities that doesn't really help it deal damage, and then the abilities it does have would be more useful on a champion that wants to mix it up. So if the build was Portal Walker + Teleport or Leap 3 instead, for example, it could zap around much more readily and then attack for bonus DMG when it wanted.
It has swap on upgrade line 2 though, maybe removing portal dance and giving him teleport and some extra health and defense might work.
How about some inhibit and chill 3 with some freezing auras and hidden arctic in there with swap as their core ability. It is too easy to cleanse and heal the debuffs. They should have longer debuffs cos if you have to hit a champ 5 times it should be eliminated anyways. What is happening is you hit a champ 4 5 times and next round it is cleansed and healed like nothing happened to easily or the champ just runs away for a bit with no effects to last on it while you are exposed to AOE's and spell slams. Being squishy is fine if you can at least do some damaging with lingering effects that force the other player to spend ap and nora to get rid of them. Right now it is super cheap to defend against it.
I would seriously agree with you if Portal Dancer wasn't so flavorful on him/her. He/She would probably be better with your suggestion, but a bit more dull IMHO. However I do think He's/she's entitled for a small buff, I just don't know which kind yet.
I personally believe should be more based on stealthy plays considering they're squishiness. I feel like they're more of monk rogues than just your typical combat ferret. Ferren focus could work more along the lines of this; Ferren Focus: The first attack this champion makes this turn stealths it. If this champion was already stealthed and successfully attacked an opposing champion, that champion becomes frozen. If it was already frozen, then it becomes slowed. If it is already slowed it becomes awestruck. Keep in mind the ferren must've been stealthed to apply ferren focus. Or, it could reduce the defense of an enemy by -1 per attack made by a ferren focus champion while applying frozen then slowed in order. I still feel as though they should rely on stealth mechanics...I just can't think of a way that'll make them balanced. Ferren focus: When this champion attacks an opposing enemy champion, it becomes frozen. If the champion is already frozen, it becomes slowed and this unit stealths.
instead of Stealth how about defile? But use the harmless bauble version of defile in their ferren focus chain. It would not be as awesome as defile and inhibit, but it would solve the cleanse and some healing problems. In playing the ferren if I can get a harmless bauble on to them it helps quite a bit and the opponents can not out compete my damage out put with healing, it is close though. Using two slots for the equip is very costly and it causes other problems. Another idea maybe is they port away in a random direction (Like a ferret does in real life ) if they hit with ferren focus on the sunder end of the ferren focus chain. Then the other two new ferren with out ferren focus would be really useful to kind of play clean up.
Ferren seem like one of the strongest themes to me (7/6/16) with a glaring weakness to any SL bg. Still, I would like to try them out, but I am missing some of the leg's & exo's I would like to use.
I've never felt strong playing Ferren, not even against the AI. Maybe they don't promote my playstyle or I don't understand them.
Yea they require a lot of thought, and although I can't really explain why, they still feel weak(even with all the discounts and buffs they got). I have a few hunches but they're all arguable.
Their strength lies in their ability to continuously swap. You should be playing all your ferren with the swap and swap buff upgrades.
Yea I do that. My problem with ferrens is that they require a lot of effort to have you make a good move, and even so they're highlysusceptible to many things. It's a tough issue because they do have healing, spell resistance and a summon counter now, but I personally still feel that some mechanics just pulverize them way too easily. This is specific to Ferrens because they're squishy, so an equip or condition would potentially get your Ferren killed much faster than other ST themes. As I see it, Sok designed them in order to avoid needing to be defensive by combining their debuffs with defensive abilities so you can focus on finding a weak spot on your enemy's strategy. My problem with this is that they just aren't fast enough to pull a kill and return safely, because there are tons of variables theat disrupt this strategy. I'm simply pointing what I think to be the problem because I really can't point a foolproof solution that owuldn't end up being OP.
I think hidden arctic as a base on them would solve some issues. Inhibit would take care of more. I would not mind seeing assassinate on Ferren Ninja. He would be costly but you can have a good setup champ with the swapping.
I think Sok already said he doesn't want ferrens to be a stealth theme, and Ferren Ninja had Assassinate in the past and it wasn't that amazing.
Maybe defile and inhibit would work. if not stealth. Assassinate on him would solve cloak of skulls type problems and arrow eater. I would use him as a long range melee attack and bounce on out of there. or something could be done with ferren hideout that only applys to ferren like reduce cool downs on swap or grant swap. They could also use a detect or a pilfer item. Pilfer sounds more ferren like
Personally I think the racial needs to taken a look at. It should still make a champion awestruck on the second or third shot. So it'd be Frozen, Sundered/Awestruck, Sundered/Awestruck respectfully.
