Yeah, imagine if Life Siphon on Dark Enchantress cost 8 extra nora Although it is a pointless ability on her to begin with, so you wouldn't take it for 1 nora either ^^
You were not around the time before the revamp, did you? Oh, well. The answer to you question back on the day was "the same". Yup, life siphon on a champion with 10dmg would cost the same than on a champion with 14dmg, multi and range 2-5. Why? Because, in theory, the champion with 10dmg would cost like 25n less than the other example. And with the right balance between stats and abilities, certain champions would be balanced and meta, disregarding the abilities it would carry. As quick example, the old executioner was amazing not because the myriad of combos or synergies among his bazillion abilities, he was purely a champion with good to incredible stats for a cheap price. Or moga: low dmg, low hp and low speed with g'hernbound on top. But given the cheap price, and the amount of meat they could deploy, moga was/is/will be/could/whatever among the strongest themes. When that developer came around and did his revamp, he removed the old cp system (good move, imo), but he also threw away the calculations and formulas to price the champions, so he could release a champion with 15 dmg, 7 spd and 50hp for 70n, while also including colossal, rampage and consume. In the old system, that monstrosity would cost like 90n. Under that developer? Who cares, powercreep to the max! So, if the owls are coming back to the days before SoE and that developer, a champion with range 2-5 would cost like 10n more than a melee champion with the same stats. So either the range champions would be cheap and very fragile, with barely some abilities (elven "nipples" archer, anyone? She used to be meta), or have several abilities, but be ridiculously expensive. Lich king was commonly ran at 90n, way before the buffs which slapped a ton of abilities on it, like oblivion shield or loyalty, because teleport and range = nuts.
To be honest, making up a nora cost doesn't work, true. But fixed prices don't work either as it doesn't account for personal synergy. Imagine my example again. But imagine instead of Dodge 1, the second champion has Block 2 with Arrow Throw. With a fixed nora cost on abilities he would probably cost the same as the champion with Dodge 2 and Arrow Throw. Except one is usable and the other is shoebox. I just want to know if they'll be able to tweak upgrade nora costs on an individual basis or not.
The way I suppose it will work is that there will be set costs at the start, but the prices will be adjusted individually based on balance. Think of it as another tool with which to balance champions.
IIRC, the developers accounted for this on the base build of every champion. That is, a champion with the same stats would be priced differently for each faction, based on synergies and different abilities within the same champion. A melee champion with 6 spd, 10 dmg, block and riposte would cost 67n for UD, while the same champion would cost 64n for SL (because they benefit less from the SL faction bonus than UD), and 70n for ST, because that cloak spell thing. Or similarly, if deep wounds would cost as upgrade 4n, the developers could rule that at base on a champion with range 2-5, it would cost 6n, hence making it more expensive than should be. However, we as players didn't know that, we only knew for certain the prices of upgrades. The upgrade costs were uniform all across the factions and champions, and quite often we had discussions proving how certain champions would have ridiculous prices for their base stats, once we remove the abilities. You think boon of undead threads are bad these days? You should had been there back on those days. Another example, someone mentioned we could upgrade the goblin brute to have similar stats to the DE Mercenary, but he would cost a bit less, like 5n. Why nobody bothered to run the goblin brute? Because dodge, hunter: kf and race: demon were worth way much more than 5n, so stripping her out of those abilities would made her way cheaper than the goblin brute*. We actually had a decent example not long ago. Rover: conqueror. How much nora was increased on that moga? Zero. It is useless, hence, there wasn't a reason to increase the price. Given the OWLS were the original designers, I suppose they will implement similar politics, so I think those concerns are covered. *This is the reason the word "efficiency" is so common in Pox Nora, because the stats:nora ratio was a big deal back then. The epitome of efficiency were the executioner and the firk... something, I don't remember.
sounds perfect. a return to the old octopi cp upgrade customization system, but only going halfway back towards it. one concern I have though is abilities like amphibious or boon of the undead or hero maybe needing to not count so much towards that 5 ability rule? furthermore if a regular champion has 5 abilities and a hero has 5 abilities including hero itself... well that just makes hero's lame as heck! other abilities like say unique or mythical don't feel like they're actually abilities at all, they're just battlegroup design restrictions.
dbouya: At least one owl said that the goal is to have a mean average of 4ish abilities per champ. Some will have 2, while others might have 7.
I'm cautiously optimistic about this. I really want it to work well, but at the same time I can't help but worry that all the runes I want to use are going to get nerfed. In KF, the runes tend to have a lot of minor abilities that synergize like Seeker of the source's current incarnation. Also, racial abilities like garu hibernate or tortuns turtle or seal of the vashal would be taking up these ability slots. A couple suggestions for clearing things up would be to combine a lot of abilities, for instance Flying/mobility/sentry can be 1 ability...'Flies over obstacles, can disengage for free, and has +2 spell presence' All that goes together in a flavorful way that makes sense and would clean up a rune like Queen Anaru. Camouflage, hidden: vegetation, and domain:vegetation could be combined/improved. "Tough 2 equivalent, +2damage, hides at end of turn'. 'Thematically saying 'Im great at hiding in the woods, and using my native terrain to my advantage.' Ranger elite, deadly tracker, and wild elf come to mind as runes that this makes sense for. Pretty sure every faction has similar runes that would work the same way for their version of terrain. Unique/Mythical/Hero should not count as 'abilities'. This isn't really reducing the complexity though, just clumping thematically similar things into cohesive sets. Less abilities means lots of abilities will become way more powerful comparatively...Bounty Hunter, titan, boon of the undead, elemental fortitude, prestige, come to mind. A lot of abilities do not need to have ranks at all...for example, Charge can just be range 3 for everyone, and Pummel can just be an ability with CD 2 maybe 3. Plz take away all spd upgrades and add them to base and adjust nora accordingly if needed. Those are always auto-picks and should just be calculated in anyways. Colossal and lumbering should be combined to 1 ability. It's a tank ability that says I tank great but I move slow. This means I think lumbering should be taken off most of the treefolks, and instead they should be lethargic like the boa is now(which should be lumbering). Ichor abilities can go away altogether....was a nice try, but needs to be completely overhauled if it is to be made interesting or relevant. This is just some of my musings. thanks for bearing with me
just read the post that gedden post not all coments and ... i HOPPE that image of inqui magnus be just an example and not real LOOOOL what? same price RESISTENCE MAGICAL 2? and cost even more for adaptive ? ahahaha so lv 3 magnus with punish and adaptive will be 88 nora? basically we get worst magnus than we have with cost increase?
He also said they are going to tone down champs so you need to strategize more. An across the board nerf to the power creeps is a good thing in my opinion.
I'd like to see a graph that shows the avg spd of champs in each era. Speedcreep is just as big a problem as complexity creep. It's the number one reason for why the game degenerated from being a strategic battle to a race to cap the first font. A lot of issues with the maps would be fixed with a speed reset.
THANK YOU !!! T H A N K . . Y O U . . ! ! ! T . H . A . N . K . . . . . Y . O . U . . . . . ! . ! . ! THANK YOU !!! T H A N K . . Y O U . . ! ! ! T . H . A . N . K . . . . . Y . O . U . . . . . ! . ! . ! Ites all i wanted, good changes, well done! I can see myself having a good time again playing pox! OMG! i am realy excited !!!
This thread http://forums.poxnora.com/index.php...uses-and-champion-efficiency.2138/#post-24764 has a graph that shows the average stat of each faction in each expansion as well as the faction averages as a whole.
Interesting idea. I would still like to see Trees that gains additional effects while rooted. Racials like Take Root should probably be looked at for granting too much at once.
Thanks for the preview, I really like all the changes. The work you have done here again shows me that you understand the issues and that you are not only willing to listen but also think up your own (even unexpected) solutions. I am very excited for the future or this game.
A good thing to do now, if you are not planning change the faccion bonus, its to take out 1 speed on every KF champions, and add a +1 speed upgrade on every KF champion, this way, if you are running FF KF you dont need that +1 speed upgrade, making the champion cheaper, and when playing SF KF you can add the +1 speed upgrade to fit the missing speed from FF KF bonus, incriassing the champion nora cost, even better, make it auto-set KF champions in SF have more nora cost, but the same speed. Unless you are planning to change faccion bonus, then its fine still have a elven mage on SFKF that can OR teleport OR attack.
