Maybe an Executioner-based solution works. One deck can focus on applying and sustaining debuffs (needs defile obviously, or perhaps something that punishes an opponent everytime a debuff is cleansed) and the other can focus on applying and removing debuffs for a benefit (loss of life, healing on the champ that removes the debuff, nora gain, etc.). This design creates different styles and forces a trade off (keep the debuffs or remove them).
Primary concern: Racials will be "toned down," e.g. only some Voil will have Evasive (?), even fewer Hyaenid will have Cackle/Dogpile (?)... Owl devs seem to be leaning toward a less-is-more approach for themes, and they appear to be rather keen on leaving theme abilities on only some units in the theme. I also play UD and I am in no way concerned about my Bleed BG, because it's so loose and there is so much non-champ theme support; however, I'm very anxious about SP's themes, which are heavily reliant upon inter-champion synergy.
It's true but the kind of synergy SP themes mostly rely on is not the global racials we have. The Voil racial for example doesn't encourage them to be ran together at all. I'm fine with less voil having Evasive and less Hyaenid having Dogpile as long as some of them gets Boost and co or some more interesting theme enabler abilities. If I understoon well that's also what was the dev's plan.
Voils do not need reqorking! Their racial is one of the best in the game! It follows science and logic as well! What voils need is a voil with pull or imperialist 2.0.
Does anyone find it weird tht Hyaenid spiritspeaker has vaporize as an upgarde even though he already has magic eater.
That's the point. He is essentially unkillable while incorporeal. Vaporize turns him into a ghost after he is attacked, and ghosts can only be attacked with Magic damage or Loss of Life. Magic Eater means he can only really be attacked once per round, unless the opponent has a unit with Attack: Loss of Life or Soulstrike. I hope so. The only reason to play these units together, currently, is to (over?-)capitalize on a single ability that creates an army out of... a single ability or set of abilities, as opposed to clear SYNERGY between runes. I would be stoked if Hyaenidae and Voil came out of the revamp being more synergetic and less reliant on the single ability set they all have -- but I don't want a middle ground, where, say, only half of all Hyaenidae have Cackle or Dogpile, but no synergy is injected into the theme to compensate for the slashing. The devs said they will be giving extra consideration to themes. I really hope so... I love Voil and Hyaenidae.
@Nebron I appreciate the tone of the post and the above most of all, but Nebron I have a question mate. All the times I railed and pushed for Nids to swing back to their debuffing roots you'd put me down time and time again. If you always wanted this kind of shift why didn't you throw some support out at the time? Again I appreciate the effort put into the message and my thoughts about SP were always kinda centric to 'Nids, the above of which happily encapsulates my thinking on the matter. Anyway, for 'Nids, some form of Control to slow down the game to allow the debuffs to build up, for example an early-game font harasser and a shift in Headshrinker to a more close range role, a general reduction in their damage to coincide with an increase in DoT's. Finally get rid of Executioner's Pseudo-Judgement, it's boring and just pushes the idea that damage potential is king while reducing the role of debuffs to that of a battery pack for powerturned Instigators.
Executioner's pseudo judgment is used against those champs that is pseudo-IMMUNE to debuffs, 1) say a Purified champ. 2) or if he or she is standing on a Consecrated Grounds. 3) or if phalanxed with Cleansing Aura unit That's basically a hard counter to a whole theme, which is truly devastating. If thats the case, I won't be playing any debuff themes. FW has defile, SP was given this. A one-turn burst damage to counter a continuous flow of healing/cleansing. The whole SP community was begging for a counter to cleansing aura, purified, or consecrated grounds because when pallies were in the meta, nids was just useless as shet. Everyone was mad omgrage, and asked for Defile. I guess devs didnt agree on giving SP the same keyword with FW. So we got pseudo-Judgment. Of course, devs hatred towards Nids accumulated and a we were given a 6SPD nid to do a 4AP melee-range judgment. If we're lucky enough, yes, we can pull off that burst damage. Most of the time we won't, and the synergy with Deep Wounds is just redundant at best. Why not make it Judgment instead and get rid of Deep Wounds. Easier to proc,easier on the AP and range, and still the same prospects. Its not like The Exile and Witchdoctor's gnna be a meta combo.
If I may Scarlet, I think you're looking at it the wrong way, I completely agree that the various mass cleanses were hard-counters but I disagree that a straight XxY DMG burst is the best option to fix this, instead it becomes a crutch and will limit any moves to update 'Nids for example, as you say, it's not the easiest thing getting Executioner exactly where he has to go just to drop the ability against exactly the right champion but if, as many people are saying, we grab ourselves some single-target or mass defile spells/champs/abilities being able to lock down opponents with increasing amounts of debuffs and then just stroll through it all with executioner to wreck face would be a tad OTT. Beyond that it STILL pushes the idea that mass-damage is king while I think most of us agree the big shift to damage boosts was a bad move for 'Nids since it took them more and more away from being a theme that relied on harrasment and poke damage all of which eventually wore down the opposition by reducing speed, damage and all other sundry. Aye mate , but ah well it's in the past now.
Exactly. Same here. I believe Nids should get something more than just a burst damage to counter all the healings. Nid Executioner's ability is 1) redundant coz its usage is so similar to judgment [many keywords = not friendly to new players], 2) it needs him to go up there and do a 4AP 1-rng melee. 3) doesn't matter if someone would say "Deep Wounds would make the attack super strong!", you either have double Executioners (which would make it harder to proc both Solo abilities), or you're using subpar champs (exception would be Witchdoctor, he's actually pretty swell by himself). Tho I still thanks the devs that they actually managed to comply with our requests. hahaa. What do you have in mind to counter all the passive cleanse options in other factions? (Assuming Defile wasn't an option)? I'd say a spell or something, something that really rewards Nid players that actually plays Nids. Something like: Laughing Atçhu (40 Nora) "Until end of turn, friendly champions' Cackle deals 5 sonic damage. Every opposing champions affected by Cackle is Defiled for 4 turns. For every friendly Hyaenid champions in play, Cackle's AoE is increased by 1, and deals an additional 1 sonic damage until the end of turn." Just because a straight up Defile aura on a tank is so boring (hint: Defiler Knight). This can be used as pseudo AP-gen, imo. Its not OP because: A) It will still be hard since you are prone to creep-blocking, unable to Cackle every opposing champs in play. B) It will cost you AP to actually move up and Cackle C) 40 Nora for a powerturn that also needs you to position yourself in danger, compare it to Avalanche which costs 45 Nora, deals 10 physical damage, and does not need any champ movements. D) You need to invest in X number of Nids for the spell to be really good. E) AoE fixed damage cone/bomb abilities does not feel the DMG downgrade on Cackle. Of course abilities with 80% of DMG will be prone to being close to <5 DMG. F) You can't abuse it in splits because it needs you to devote yourself to Hyaenids, but still splashable with Demonic Wag/Cackling Witch if you still retain your focus on Nids racial. Why its pseudo AP gen? Because assuming you opp doesn't have 10 Minotaur Gladiators with 20 damage, Cackle would downgrade their DMG down to a level with which Aid Defense from Bulwark will dissipate the damage to <5 DMG. With that 1 turn, you are able to close the distance, and pummel on every living thing on the board. And even then, archer KF/UD or 100 Jakei Elders would still make you unable to reach them and Cackle off for the turn. The spell will be more likely feels similar to KF's Reclaim in its effects, while more sustainable, yet less restricting (pacified - cant deal any damage. at least this spell still allows you for DOT, fixed dmg cone/AoE, etc). Sry for the long post, I'm still waiting for further documents in the office and got kinda bored.
Back in the other forums, I suggested a few Hyaenid runes with Defiling effects... it really would be the icing on their cake. IMO, Cackle could just do damage, regardless, without affecting balance. Doing 5 Sonic damage in an AoE every few rounds isn't going to be game breaking, even with an army of Hyaenids out... you still have to position them all and use the AP. On paper it sounds like a lot of damage too often, but when I see it playing out in my mind, it's just "pretty good." I would actually love to see two key units in Nids get a defiling ability... one ranged unit with an on-attack passive defile, and one melee with a defiling aura. I don't think it's boring; I think melee auras, in fact, are one of the few very straightforward, inherently balanced, and consistent mechanics in the game. That probably comes off as "boring," but I'll take it!
