Yay! Agreement ! Thank you! Even a button that changed the Z order would be something. Your button suggested could so that as it cycles...bring to the front of the Z order. Maybe, maybe not. Would have to see the source. Only the developers know for sure. I do know it has a great concept, great mechanics, and is fun to play, but the graphics, in my opinion, are a huge turn off.
That does indeed seem much simpler than what I imagined you were proposing. However we would still need each of the maps redone to be viewable from all 4 directions. Its a much smaller task than redoing the thousands of units but still a pretty sizable one. As is if the map rotated a tree would just appear upside down if you rotated it twice. This is kind of why they are having the client update in the first place. The code has been through multiple developers over the years and is a mess at the moment. The hope is to clean everything up so that its easier to add things or fix things which will free up development time if they dont have to worry about breaking things as they fix small bugs.
This thread got pretty long before I saw it, so I'm just going to respond to some things I see throughout the posts: This has been in the game for a while now. The game is rendered in an isometric grid so things that are closer to the top of the screen are drawn beneath everything closer to the bottom of the screen. Just yesterday, I was playing a skirmish on the ice and snow map, and the cliff at the top right can block out the entire sprite of a champion, depending on the size of the champion. A simple fix would perhaps to make the cliff transparent when there is something occupying the couple spaces above it. As for flyers, I'm not sure of any graphical fix, as making some champions transparent may not be a good idea, but it's important to understand that you should target things on the grid by clicking on the square it occupies and not necessarily on the sprite itself. Another thing that is slightly unrelated is that if you turn on the grid lines and terrain markers, sometimes the obstacles on the map are drawn over the grayed out squares marked as inaccessible. This is probably because the obstacles are rendered separate from the map, so as to allow for champions to appear behind an obstacle on the grid. It's not that big a deal as it's only an issue if you turn on the terrain markers; it only bothers me because it is inconsistent as sometimes its under and sometimes over. ----- I am going to have to disagree that choosing to use sprites is not a style. The way they choose to present the game is a stylistic choice. While some people will find this enjoyable, it is equally possible to find those that don't, the same way some people enjoy art made by van Gogh over Picasso (sorry, first names that popped into my head). And that's fine. It's about tailoring the game to an audience, like how one would write an journal article with a certain audience in mind (writing styles). With regards to "hand painted" graphics: I think it is computer graphics industry standard now to use graphics tablets to make digital art. I am not sure how aware of them you are, but I think it is arguable that the way computer graphics are made now can be called "hand painted." Take a look at this YouTube video: Note that this is only one of many similar videos of artists showing off their skill in this manner. Although, depending on how you choose to define "hand painting," using a mouse could still be considered so. I am not aware of how Pox Nora's maps are drawn so this may not be the way the maps are actually made. Still though, art that are painted with watercolor or oil have been digitized for many years now. There a number of books (although perhaps mostly children's books) that feature watercolor illustrations. Here's another YouTube video: Again, I'm not familiar specifically about how the maps in the game are made, but am merely presenting another example of how they can be "hand painted." You are still correct, however, that artists are probably still using graphics software to make the artwork. Well, you need some kind of software to do anything on a computer, really. ----- There were some other things that I wanted to address, but while typing a longish post, I think a lot of it was eventually worked out.
Reminds me of those paintings with the character/person/whatever looking forward(with the eyes centralized) to make the viewers always believe the painting is looking at them. About the thread, I'm not sure anyone made it clear, I don't think improving the graphics is financially wise, as it really doesn't bring Pox(specifically) as many new players as the investment necessary for such changes by itself. I'm not saying it's forever impossible, but certainly not now.
The way the champion sprites face left or right suggest that it's doable with only two viewing directions, i.e. one additional view that's directly opposite of how it is now. You are still right that new maps and obstacles images will need to be made though.
You may disagree, but Again, I have never sat at a meeting and heard any producer or developer talk about sprites as a matter of style, ever. I have, however, heard plenty of talks and debates over time, resources, and capabilities. I've also seen many a game forum, after release, where criticisms of graphical quality are dismissed as "style". The idea that any faster, easier way of doing something is a matter of style, is game industry propaganda. Forum goers are just accustomed to accepting that as matter of fact, as much as they have been accustomed to thinking MMO means "anything that is on a network, such as Outlook Express." Sprites are a technology. You may have missed the parts in the thread, where I explain, that you can render the exact same thing, not changing the look of it one iota, using a technology other than sprites. I've worked with more than 500 artists so far, and never heard one use the term "hand painted" when describing digital art. Using a tablet, like you say, is just substituting for the mouse. If using Photoshop, selecting the brush tool, and drawing in color, using either a mouse, or a tablet, is to be considered "hand painted", then what is not "hand painted?" Sounds like marketing jargon to me. Fair enough, but that's not the case here, for certain. I smell what you're stepping in.
Typically only two facing directions are used in these types of games. This is pretty standard Graphics 101 stuff, but good observation. Nothing need be done with the terrain. It lays on a plane at a 90 degree angel the billboards, or in other words, on the xz plane. The camera looks down at it at an angle. Much like the game looks right now. It's just 3D instead of 2D, allowing for camera zoom, translation, and rotation. You might want to do some of the structures or rocks as their own billboards though, to be fair. This is also, just one option out of many, mainly used to just demonstrate what I meant by 2D vs 3D, without going fully 3d models and such.
It's fine if this conversation is going to continue, but this thread will be moved to OT if its subject becomes "The various ways of constructing video game graphics."
I don't really care about this thread or anyone who is debating this factor but, while browsing I saw what you said and I didn't care until you said this and made a list. I didn't care of your list about "graphical games that are outstandingly beautiful" until I saw you put Death Stranding. I've seen the trailers, I like Kojima as a developer but this game doesn't have any gameplay out. It doesn't even have any real information besides what type of game it will be. So don't use this as an example on anything, especially since it won't come out for another 4 years. It has 2 trailers that have yet to reveal anything but some of the famous cast members that have in the game. I'm not saying remove it, but don't try to brag about a game that has no gameplay footage nor anything else but 2 trailers out.
Some less intelligent people don't understand the difference between cinematic trailers and game play trailers
Kojima said it was going to be like Last of Us or Uncharted with something mix in it that could make it a new sub genre. He's using Guerrilla game's sofware (Horizon one) which so far has created amazing graphical games. Kojima visited Naughty Dog, Sucker Punch, Guerrilla Games, Santa Monica looking to partner with something. All of those engines provide amazing graphics. It's Kojima we're talking about. I doubt he paid Norman Reedus and Del Toro for a worse looking game than Horizon or any game of the list. He also made Metal Gear and it looks amazing. Either way. You people act like there is no problem letting the game stay in 2d. You all may be satisfied with good gameplay bad graphics game but the majority aren't attracted to that. The game could easily still have its deep strategy and good gameplay while upgrading the sprites to bigger size 3d models, more animations and 3d maps (can be rotate like a globe as well). I kind of have to agree with the OP. The game sooner or later will have to go 3D. I get his attitude but at least half of the players here act that way. We would all be banned if were in a Nintendo forum and still acted the same way we do in here. Doesn't have to go lower than PG13 level but you get the point. Let the OP talk the way he wants. It's not like something that happens daily in the forums or in game chat.
lol. It wouldn't make no sense for Kojima to make a worse looking game than Metal Gear. Obvious is so obvious. He is sticking to what he's good at. He even has original Konami members and they all will put it to work with Horizon's game engine. You think Kojima comeback will be with a PS3 looking game? This is Senpai Kojima Sensei we're talking about here. Also. If it's taking 4 years. It is going to look good. Also. F#ck Konami
I now realized it's themacca. Is that all you do? Call people idiots 24/7? Your ego makes me sad. I start making stupid jokes and I just love your paper thin tolerance to it. You getting mad at people having fun is laughable. I type something in game and you always have to comment something stupid because you don't like it. You're are no less of a ****** than this fleshbits dude. People thinking someone is an idiot for playing bad or saying something wrong about PoxNora. Gosh your CNS is failing.
Going 3d can provide quite a lot of possibilities for pox - better terraforming, walls/highground, beam/projectile system for ranged attacks, "climb" stat allowing champs to traverse steeper slopes, better knockback/sliding down/jumps, real water/underground/airborne movement, etc. The rendering itself is elementary now once the client was already ported to unity. Making simple 3d models is even easier than making animated sprites after some initial setup. But we all know that dog won't do anything at all.
Using 3d rendering for 2d games is pretty much industry standard today as far as I'm aware*. Knowing that the new client is written in Unity, and that it has already been confirmed in this very thread that the assets will be upscaled for modern screens, I think it's pretty safe to assume that this is exactly what the new client will do. Adding arbitrary zoom should then be trivial. That said, rotating the maps the way you propose without redoing them is just not possible. The maps are drawn as mostly single pieces with isometric perspective. Putting that on a quad in 3d rendering pipeline as is is one thing, but rotating it at an angle would cause distortion of the perspective. Redoing all the maps is definitely way more doable than redoing all the champion sprites, but it's still work. I wouldn't hate it happening at some time in the future, but I'd also be realistic about what DOG can deliver with the resources they have. * even in the borg that is browser stack with JS, games are made with dedicated 2d libraries that render things using WebGL for better performance. You might not be aware of it, but the game did get several updates to its graphics since its conception. All of the terrain effects (such as covering ground with snow or ice) and I think most of the attack effects (fire attacks come to mind) have been redone few years back. Some of the maps also got a complete repaint coupled with some new effects that the game lacked in 2006. So no, there is nothing to defend here because it's already happening, the new client is just another step in that process.
O.O uh notification seen. Checks out thread... long already... lets read... OH GOD WHAT MADNESS HAS POSESSED ME!?
You saying "you realize it's Kojima" is why I said that in the first place. Every game he has made has so much misdirection it makes me get whip lash. Metal Gear Solid 5 wasn't even announced, it had a fake company and different name for months. I wouldn't even be bewildered if this game's name isn't something entirely different in a few years, and not to mention what it will look like. I agree it will probably look extremely good, but a "good looking" videogame doesn't make the game good itself. If you base a game off entirely of graphics or a single point then you sir are an idiot(not saying you are, saying people who do are) Going off the original topic, I don't care for the whole debate on upgrade or stay for the graphics. I fell in love with Pox for the story, and that is why I have stayed(also the hundreds if not thousands of dollars I have poured into it) and I have even been given the chance to help work on the game as a fellow member of the council which has been amazing. This game first caught my eye back in 2007, and ever since I have fallen more deeply in love with it. This game is like a significant other. The more you stay with the person the more you realize how much you hate them and yourself but can't imagine what you would do without that person. I will be here until the bitter end, and after...unless I die. Thus this pain is an illusion, this body holding me reminds me of my own mortality. Let this thread end in a bang. Cheers mate and see you later space cowboy
I never said good graphics make good games. I am just saying that good graphics make sales on day 1 or make people try f2p games. We all like this game but there is no denying that we want it to be x10 more successful.
