Over efficient champ?

My argument this whole time has been it is strong in worms but the issue isn't with bz, necrosis is the issue. You also seem to agree with that. Idk why you think i am an "idiot" if you agree.

My big gripe is people want bz nerved which makes no sense, its clearly an average to possibly below average champ. Necrosis can make it a pain but necrosis in itself is a big pain and should be the target, not bz.

 

Apologies, I had read your comment and still only thought of bile zombie in conjunction with worms, since that is when I always see it.
Additionally, you mention in the other thread that even in worms bile zombie is telegraphed and can be positioned against, while completely ignoring what that "positioning against" actually means and does to the player not running worms. And you also fail to mention that, even when positioned against, bile zombie is still insanely good and the best spell in the game.

 

Bile zombie is definitely a solid card but all cards should be. You want everything to be playable. But bz is certainly not out of hand. In worms you have the leeway to spread out because you know it is coming guaranteed if you are playing worms. Worm champs generally aren't crazy strong either so the positioning is a little less harmful when playing against that deck.

I don't think I would agree its the best "spell" in the game. Outside of worms I wouldn't consider it a spell at all. It takes a really solid strategy and some good moves to use a bz to great effect in non worms bgs. I agree it can be useful even when hitting a single target, but most champs are. Nothing out of the ordinary on that front.

Tl;Dr bile zombies isn't an auto win, even in worms even though worms does make it a bit op. However bile zombie isn't the issue. Its necrosis. He isn't very harmful outside of worms without spectacular play

 

Just want to reply to a couple different snippets here, not necessarily to disagree--

Primarily because of Bile Zombie -- I agree with the following from Baller:

For various reasons, Bile Zombie is integral to how worms end up playing. Outside of BZ and a couple other minor things -- Portal on Phanta, pseudo-initiative, some Short Lived champs -- worms do not have the tools to operate late-game. They have little synergy aside from their bonus, no good healing, and few ways to escalate damage.

I agree with Macca here: no, no worms will not. If a bunch of new players hop into Pox and suddenly get worms and do well with it over a stretch, good on them. I would bet hard money against it.

 

You are just flat out wrong with this bit

 

You are more than welcome to your opinion but I disagree. Its definitely a hassle in worms but its not anything that can't be overcome. However its effectiveness in worms is not in question. Its strong and probably too strong in that deck but still not an auto win card and can be outplayed. Bz doesn't need any changes though, worms in general do, mainly with necrosis

 

How the **** do you outplay a bile zombie when playing against a worms deck?
Remember, I'm asking you this as the number 1 freaking player in the game

 

by gitting gud, not something YOU would understand

 

It's cool, I'm sure to get kicked off of rank 1 when the new players come, seeing as I can't even overcome a little bile zombie

 

By not allowing yourself to have your units a tightly grouped they can always be hit by AOE 2. Im not a pro, I am sure i wouldn't have the foresight for it, but top tier players play very well. And I can absolutely guarantee you that deck doesn't have a 100% win rate. So it is beatable.

Finally no offense baller you being number one is kind of iffy. There are several players with higher win percentages. You play more but there are people who play better. You tend to be a bit fill of yourself and I feel that's what stops you from being true number 1

 

You know, just because they are new players does not mean they are idiots. Playing worms is not difficult. The concept is not hard to understand. You guys make it sound as if playing worms correctly is some sort of art lmao. It'll take practice to get used to, but that happens with any bg.

Let me paint this scenario in a different manner; when the influx of brand spanking new players come in because of the launch guess what's going to happen? A bunch of returning veteran players will come with them and I'm pretty sure they'll be able to pick up a worm bg and destroy all those helpless corgis and sheoul demons out there

 

hehe rekt kid

called out

git gud

@Ballballer

 

A) its not AOE 2 you idiot/ a deck not having a 100% win rate is not the "okay this is fine limit"
B) Truly glorious :') I haven't played since September btw ahahaha

 

I've said several times its too strong. However people are overexagerating. Everyone is saying there is no way to outplay it when clearly there are people out there doing it

 

pots

 

@Ballballer is saying that you can position in a way to avoid BZ but it puts you in a pretty shitty position to mount an attack/defense. Last I checked, positioning is kind of important in the high ranks where the pox gods like heajmac and chris0024 dwell

 

And I totally agree. But if that is now the issue, then relocation heavy decks are op too. There are some things that will happen in a game that will hinder what you want to do. Bile zombie is one of those things. It happens. The enemy isn't supposed to make the game easy for you. Being taken out of your comfort zone is all part of the game

 

I will go a step further and say there is no way to outplay BZ when playing against a worms deck

Can you mitigate its damage? Sure, but it's still hitting and debuffing ~2 champs and is the best spell in the game.
Interestingly enough, the best way I've found to play against bile zombie is not to spread out unless absolutely necessary. Everyone forgets that bile zombie is a 2x2 champ when talking about spreading out. You have to spread all of your ******* champs out farther than spacing out for a standard aoe just to make sure that 2 champs dont get hit. Not only is this incredibly impractical (and will flat out lose you the game on a lot of maps), its oftentimes impossible. Spreading out so far also makes you vulnerable to the wonderful *hug* tactic that good worms players will use, in that they just deploy anything adjacent to a champ whose movement they wish to limit. Having your champs spaced out too far will make this tactic against you much more effective, as you can't counter effectively and if you do you are now not spaced out. WHICH WAS THE ENTIRE ******* PURPOSE OF YOU SPREADING OUT IN THE FIRST PLACE

What I like to do instead is to arrange my champs much closer together and limit spaces where a 2x2 champ can be placed. Since FW doesnt really have enemy relocation effects, this allows me to dictate/have a very good guess as to where the bile zombie will be placed, and plan accordingly. With this strategy, you are basically accepting that Bile zombie is going to hit you and hit you hard, but you are more in control and don't just destroy your own positioning without the worms player even doing anything. Of course this becomes exponentially harder as the game goes on and the worms player can flank you from whatever angle they wish. This strategy is also very vulnerable to an influx of chattering maws just straight up ruining your day.

To sum it up, nubs lecturing me on things they have no idea about is just as charming as its always been and never fails to make me giggle. Thank you to the semi-decent players/vets who have stuck around and have somewhat learned to not annoy me with stupid opinions not formed from playing/at least understanding the top ranks of gameplay.

Ballballer out

 

No, new players are hardly idiots. But if Tiny has played as long as he has, and has demonstrated the broad competency he has, and even he (like everyone else -- me and macca and the rest of people who mess with the theme included) fumbles around with worms, then maybe it's reasonable to doubt the likelihood of a bunch of new players or returning vets suddenly trouncing with the deck. It has never been my position or my intention to suggest that I know everything about worms. Hardly -- and I would hope that it has neither been the intention of anyone else who has posted about them. But I do know enough at this point to realize that few people know much of anything about worms, and I'd rather they stopped assuming as such. I say this without any ill will or sarcasm: pick them up; play them for a bit. They are an absolute blast, and it will give us further grounding for some sort of conversation

--

As to whether or not it's possible to play around Bile Zombie -- I'm more inclined to agree with Baller here. No, Bile Zombie is not a gimmick: there aren't strategic or tactical decisions that completely remove its effectiveness. Yes, Bile Zombies do involve an element of counter-play, in which the non-worms player can position to reduce a BZ's effectiveness. Sometimes that positioning will involve spreading out (if the worms player is stagflating, for instance), and sometimes it will mean boxing up and making sure that BZ can only tag 2 champs at a time. These sorts tactical decisions mitigate damage. When performed properly, they will reduce damage taken, but they do not completely shut down Bile Zombie -- neither should they, nor, I think, should there be an expectation that they would do so.

As far as the value generated in these mitigated scenarios, Bile Zombie may or may not be worth using against 2 opposing champions -- that valuation depends upon how many 2 is in relation to the rest of the army, and how much 36/39 nora is in relation to the worms army. Is this an 8 v 8 or 10 v 10? Maybe not be worth using Bile on 2 targets. 5 v 5? Rarely a bad decision, often a good one. Just because Bile Zombie becomes the best spell in the game (and that's an assertion with which I would generally agree), that spell may not always be the right play.

 

Once again, thats a major issue with many of the players who have been playing a while. The "this won't work" thing. I have seen an incredible amount of people say "this wont work" or "that doesn't work" what you may consider as not being possible, simply may not be possible for you. Some people are unique. I think the fact that so many people have been waiting on the update has left everyone a little rusty in the creativity department. You hear talk about the meta game being very set decks with very set tactics. I hope once the new update comes and there is an influx of new players with new ideas, people will start believing that not everything has to be so cookie cutter.