10 champions in the newest expansion have 11 damage or higher, I understand the need for a bit of power creep for marketing reasons and even get that a lot of them are exos and legendaries. Visions of Amareth- This expansion had 10 champs with 11 damage or higher very few ways to amp that damage no champions with 13 damage, and very few out of those 10 had 12 damage. Also this expansion had 40 champions, compared to planar which had 40 not including limiteds. Visions 11 damage-8 Visions 12 damage-2 Visions 13 or higher- Planar 11 damage-5 Planar 12 damage-4 Planar 13 or higher- 1 We slowly scaled up, and this isn't even mentioning the difference in damage amp abilities on the newer expansions. Visions punish-2 strength of body- 1 preparation-1 charge-1 sunder 2- 1 pounce- 1 blood frenzy- 1 duel-1 render-1 hunter walker-1 commander flying-1 portal walker- This ability needs nerfed on every rune 1 adaptive-1 surge enemy-1 ironfist exploit-1 quest crusade- 1 truthseeker-1 Total damage buffs- 18, some of these are on the same champ just different ability lines. Planar hunter soul tapped- 1 sunder 1-1 sunder 2-2 hunter fighter-1 flanking-1 rock defiance-1 command charge- 1 aim-1 sabotage acid-1 deep wounds-1 zeal damage-4 empowered offense-4 encouraged-1 hunter crippled-2 All 3 are on thicket crawler and empowered offense, and he starts with 11 base damage. hunter poisoned-1 hunter hero-1 quest runner-1 These next 4 are all on centaur bolter, my new favorite ranged unit. hunter walker-1 blitz-1 declare hunted-2 kill sense-1 sabotage armor- 1 cull-1 pounce-2 hunter poisoned-1 warlord-2 spellswallower-1 dogpile-1 mark of al'mara-1 hunter mage-1 hunter small-1 hunter bloodied-1 escalation-1 strength of body-1 tundra awakening-1 preparation-1 ranged stance- 1 normally wouldn't include this but it's on a champ with kinetic impulse farshot- 1 same as above kinetic impulse-1 charge 3-1 logistics flanking-1 hunter meek-1 I may have missed some, I didn't put in shatter because you or your opponent need equipment to benefit from that. Again some are on the same champ but different ability lines. As you can see we have 53 new damage amp abilities in an expansion with just as many champs, yet we tripled the amount of damage amp, but I guess were not increasing damage at all. Also note that very few defensive abilities were added either, which could also be apart of the problem. I'm not saying we need more defensive abilities, but less damage amp abilities would be nice. Sure we could argue that some of these abilities weren't out yet, therefore they couldn't be on the old runes, but again that kinda just proves my point further. I understand that we have gone down because of aoe damage buff abilities, but the numbers I have listed above indicate were now just getting our champs with higher base damage and more way to self amp that damage examples: blitz, zeal etc. Was it better before requiring multiple champs for buffs or is it better now requiring one champ that super buffs himself, i'll leave this mostly to you all to discuss as i've already stated my opinions. I believe at the current rate were amping damage we will probably start seeing 13 and 14 more often as were currently seeing 11, 12 and even 13. I believe self buffing runes are more a problem then a theme requiring multiple champs out to get buffed through commander, defender, shroud, sermon, rock defiance. Do you believe damage is going up or down and why ?
I think that the data you provide is an interesting way of looking at this idea, but it might help if it was sorted by larger categories? All the specificity makes it come out as mush -- lot harder to tell what we are looking at.
It's every ability that is a damage buff, on paper those are all the abilities that buff damage in the last expansion compared to a previous expansion with the same number of champions. You can sort it if you like I just posted it here cause you asked, I know the damage is going up simply because we nearly tripled the amount of damage buff abilities in this last expansion compared to previous expansions.
I mean, my point is that sorting by kinds of damage buffs helps people parse what they're looking at. Maybe I'll mess with the data if it becomes more important to the conversation.
I guess, I just don't think it's that complex really. Were implementing more damage buffs per single rune, and we have more champs with higher base damage each expansion. Your typically better at this stuff anyways and better at explaining your thoughts so i'll leave it here and pop in now and then.
Aight, we can leave the data for later once people way in with their general impressions. I am not sure I necessarily agree with your larger point that champion damage continues to go up, but I do think that your argument about the qualitative expression of damage amplification effects could be right i.e. that damage amplifications are more often internal to a champion rather than interactive. Hadn't really thought about that shift much.
You don't have to agree with it, but I posted the numbers and they are indeed going up. More champs with 12 damage and more champs with 13 damage.
That quantity of recently released champions with abilities that can augment their damage doesn't have any necessary correlation with the meta game -- see, for example, the removal of Surge from a lot of old champs. Redesigning of changing of old champs can have a large effect upon what people play, and quantity of abilities neither has any necessary correlation with the kind of damage numbers you can expect in a real game. That's my point: interesting data, but insufficient as yet in my view to demonstrate the kind of trend for which you are arguing. The exact nature of the data you supply also could use some explaining -- are you counting the number of champions released with damage-mod abilities, or the total number of abilities? How, if at all, are you factoring multiple abilities on the same upgrade line, where they are not only contained on the same champion but are mutually exclusive? How should we weight those in evaluation? Also, these damage-mod abilities have different consistencies and magnitudes -- Hunter: Poisoned should be worth the same as Blitz, and both of those are equivalent to Surge: Enemy? Reflexively, I would say not. My aim isn't to discard your argument, just to point out the questions I would pose to the data you present.
Total number of abilities that increase damage, it doesn't matter if they are on the same ability lines or not and I noted that. What matters is in total how many abilities increase damage and how many their are because it shows damage amplification is on the rise as a whole. It's not really any argument, it really is just a numbers game. Their are more champions with higher damage now then a few expansions ago, that is a fact. Their are more champions with abilities that increase damage in new expansions, that is a fact. To sit and debate over those two things is a waste of both our time, because it's already set in stone unless we get a patch. We could argue which abilities are stronger but in the end they all do the same thing, they all amplify damage. I think pox has just hit a wall where the only abilities we can throw on champs is damage amp, because we can't start spreading all the support abilities without losing the identity of those champs and making them irrelevant. You can always have more beaters but can't have a deck of utility champs.
I could go through and note which champs have multiple damage buffs on themselves and which ones they can take per ability line, however I don't believe that would make a large enough difference as currently we tripled the old number of damage amps from the visions expansion. I also counted the damage amp abilities in full in the visions expansion as well, so i'd probably have to remove a couple from the 18 it had. Also you can look at last expansion and the expansion before and see average damage is going up slightly higher every expansion when not including passive champs with 0 damage.
I'll come back later and state my own position, but suffice to say "it's not really an argument, the data speaks for itself" does nothing for me.
More champs per expansion with higher damage, their is no argument for that because it's true. Arguing about it is counter productive, more champs are being made with higher damages. Like I said I'm interested to hear other perspectives, me and you can go back and forth all day and regardless what the numbers say you will come back with something.
There's a one-sentence summary/thesis at the bottom. All the rest is just me showing my work. First things first, when looked at over the course of the expansions since Ronin (which I think is a fair marker of the current design era), the printed DMG values show no noticeable trend upward. Here they are in release order, counting mid-terms and ignoring reprints: ronin 11-5 12-8 13-1 coalitions 11-6 12-5 13-1 path 11-14 12-2 13-0 visions 11-8 12-2 13-0 spirits 11-5 12-5 13-1 planar 11-5 12-4 13-1 Trend: 11: 5 > 6 > 14 > 8 > 5 > 5 12: 8 > 5 > 2 > 2 > 5 > 4 13: 1 > 1 > 0 > 0 > 1 > 1 No champion broke 14 base DMG. Now, as to damage-mod abilities, in trying to keep in line with your assessment, I have noted any abilities that can directly improve damage output (but ignoring SPD increases for now, or eHP like Pummel, I guess, because I am not exactly sure what rules you used to count). Here are my raw notes, and I'll parse the data afterward: path bbbaron 1cmnd charge 1surge 2dictate bthunder fist 1punish 1sunder 3emp offence anchorite 1sunder rimeweaver 1adaptive 1domain sandclaw 1domain 2sandstriker 3blood frenzy d pursuer 1sunder2 3sunder exploit 3violent tardigrade 1domain 1sandstriker gen lich 1adaptive borderguard 1hunter quick guardian eretat 1relic guardian 3summon treasure lodestone megalith 3megalith guards thunderaxe 2relic guard motion sensor 2emp offense 3vengeful nef informant 3declare veng pureblood 1zeal dmg 1quest dmg retic splinehawk 1initiator 1blitz 1hunter walker 2pounce salam appraiser 1rage potion 3salam ingenuity salam elite 1commander 2encouraged 2battle leader vanguard 1dictate 2drive firk mutant 1hunter tomb sentinel 1charge tortun hawker 2declare hunted 3hawk attack twoheaded kanen 1emp offense 1pounce shadecaster 1portal walker 2pounce warden of the path 1emp offense 1hunter meek 1heart strike 2quest kill whitestar 1savage exploit 1surge tundra yeti painter 1augment creation 1commander Ok, in total, that is 55 abilities, spread across 27 unique champions, out of (about, depending how you count them) 48 champions, from an expansion of 57 runes. This is from Path, which came before Visions. So what do these two data sets means, really? Not much. They do show two things: First, there is no notable trend across printed DMG values in the 6 expansions that comprise DOG's run of the game. You see between 10 and 16 champions each time with printed DMG above 10, and that range does not tilt one way across the expansions -- actually, Planar Disturbances is tied for least champions with printed DMG greater than 10. Second, that, at the very least, there is no consistent increase in damage-mod abilities across the past 4 expansions. Path actually has 2 more damage-mod abilities on its champions than does Planar (in their current incarnations, I should note -- all the numbers are pulled from the champ versions as of 9/20/17's most recent patch). I don't want to do a complete dive through the other three expansions in the moment, considering the time it would take, but I think that the one is sufficient. Those two points are data facts, not argumentative facts: they are facts about the data sets we might use to argue, and I do not consider them in-and-of-themselves substantive to any argument, not without interpretation. My interpretation of them is incredibly narrow: these expressions of data demonstrate no clear or continual increase in either printed DMG values or in the number of damage-mod abilities available on champions. As a result, I suggest that, no matter in what way you intend to interpret these particular categories of data, they will not sufficiently demonstrate any persistent, substantive change over time. --- In short, maybe damage has gone up or down, maybe it has changed from groups to single champs, but whatever way you slice it, the data you've chosen is junk and doesn't prove anything to me. I'll be back with my own argument later.
Whatever you say man, posted this cause you asked, not to sit and play war of words with you. I could launch into my own tirade about how you used an expansion under dog with a ton of damage amp to argue that their isn't an increase of damage amp over time. I could also argue that we have been increasing base damage of champions from earlier expansions just to keep them up with the meta game. In the end you probably have more tools at your disposal than I do when it comes to pox, so maybe you will get to the bottom of it. Most likely even if I did win the war of words, a troll would pop in and the thread would be closed as that frequently seems to happen around these forums.
First section on data... An interesting idea -- lets look at the data for Drums of War, the first proper expansion that Pox had, and at Plague of Ba'lah, one of the expansions just before DOG's entry: DOW data 38 damage mod 11-5 12-1 13-2 14-0 15-1 gatekeeper 2impassioned 2noble sac dragon handler 2drive 3commander drak charger 12 2charge elven fury 2hunter 3fury fallen drak 2hunter mage 2hunter scout 2hunter hero firebomber 11 ghoul 1hunter disease 1fw exploit ghoulhunter 2hunter quick 2hunter meek 2hunter mage grimthir 11 hip rider 1charge 2heavy charger is collecter 1hunter equipped jakei snowcharger 1charge 2domain snow 2hawk attack 3protective klzik 13 2surge mandrake 2spellswallower mena 11 mog hunters 2hunter quick 2hunter small 2hunter meek salam sentry 2relic guardian salam soldier 1render 3hunter fighter skeez canon 1piercing shot snow rhea 11 stone drgn 3hunter fighter talgar 13 2ham throw vindrax 15 3surge drgn voil bomber 2prep wep smith 1hunter equipped 3fury xulos 11 1dark awakening PoB data 62 damage mod 11-10 12-9 13-1 ancient slag 3hunter small baby slag 1guarded skeez 1guarded slag 1guarded clops boneshredder 2sunder circ songmaster 3mire resurgence civ wilderkin 11 3blitz coral creep 1commander 3noble sac corrupt overlord 11 cyclops primal 12 1encouraged 1surge behemoth cyclops rit 2guarded cyclops deadly tracker 2declare hunted deep elf infil 12 elven taskmaster 2drive 2vigilance emerald wing 11 eye of serkan 11 2log flanking 2hunter tapped faeguard 1hunter small ferren wanderer 3melee spec firk mastermind 2battlemaster frostfall hydra 12 1kill sense leoss magnate 2regal presence 3magnate's blessing lonx channeler 11 2escalation 2psychic amped lonx luminary 1guarded beast metalic slag 3distic surge mino fury 1hostile 1quest dmg 1enrage misshapen boghop 13 1pounce mounted kinsman 1charge 2cmnd charge 2violent nc cardinal 1sermon nc fanatic 12 1pounce poll martyr 12 private captain 12 2explo attack rupture alpha 11 2commander 2escalation 2battle harden sarg centaur 12 1duel 2charge serp paradigm 11 2spur 3violent sheoul disciple 12 1sunder 2vengeful 2hunter tapped skeez blackguard 11 2relic guardian 3bg training skeez grunt 12 skeez ripper 1quest runner 3running strike skel reaper 1hunter diseased 1hunter hero 1render skel rifleman 1hunter hero 1sunder 2forsaken exploit 2punish 3aim skybreak dragon 11 1pounce stitched tyrant 11 1charge 2hunter small Conclusions from that: the PoB data clocks in as higher than any of the examined DOG expansions; DoW looks like the lower end of average. I'll respond to something else you said, then talk more about what this data (often doesn't) say. I think that this makes a good point: looking at present records of champions in the checklist by expansion doesn't actually give us "release" data, and this is especially true for that Drums of War information -- every champion in there has necessarily been changed since release. Even with the variance because of patches, I would come at these sorts of data sets in a different way if I was trying to draw something from them. First, I think that the damage mod categories should be sorted by magnitude and consistency. Those are both more substantive factors than the mere "it can increase damage output" metric. Likewise, I would limit this to slots, and remove from the count any duplicate abilities on the same line -- champs don't get anything from abilities they don't and can't have. Second, I would mostly scrap the printed DMG metrics, and when listed, would include the entire potential data set rather than just >10 values. I think that the 10 DMG break-point is mostly arbitrary, and orienting a data set around that number cuts off important information. Third, and most importantly, I would make a new list that files champions by their expected damage output per attack, per point of AP, and per turn (and leave a separate category for support abilities that may not require AP). I think that, when we are talking about whether "damage has gone up", we are most often thinking of those proportional measures of damage output. I think that we should try to match data to our language, and recognize the limits to which that is possible, rather than letting our language merely mirror whatever data is available. ----- Second section on the subject at hand... I think that champion damage output has marginally decreased over the last two years, and has dropped significantly over the last four or so. Surge has declined in prevalence and gotten more expensive, things like Blitz have seen nerfs or caps, and many sources of percent multiplication were fundamentally altered to reduce their potential to scale up. A few years ago, you could and should have expected ranged champions to hit for 15-20 damage with extreme consistency by mid-game; if your champs weren't doing that, you would get out-scaled by common and powerful healing options, and generally muscled over by opponents who were doing that kind of damage. This has changed. If you are snagging 20 damage hits with a ranged champ, you are doing some good work for it (and ranged damage output matters more than melee). Several melee champs exist that can put out a whooping, but they are fundamentally less able to spend AP on damage than are ranged champions; their high numbers matter less, besides dropping slightly as well. Now, I don't mean to dispute your secondary claim that damage buffing is really important right now. In fact,, ironically, decreasing the eccentricity of damage values makes buffs more important. Just look at DnD 5E if you want a great example of this: that system is built around bounded stat values, so if you find a +1 attack bonus somewhere, you gobble it up because that's gold. Augment Creation has become especially good right now because +2 DMG matters more than it used to. Similarly, the difference between having and not having Banner out has also increased. I would say that DMG values usually get modded by about +3 to +5 right now -- +1 from Banner, +2 from Commander or its equivalent, and probably +2 from some other more specific source. That's the range that I see in most games that I play and observe. Were decks to become more refined, I would expect that range to move to up a bit, with the average hitting around +5 for decks that don't want to rush, the top end being +7, and spikes to +10 on power turns. You also made a comment that damage modding has moved towards more individual champions, rather than happening in groups. I think I agree with that. Not sure that I have anything else to say about it right now, other than to note that agreement, though.
Sorting champs based on their range would be better. Melee champs have higher base damage on average, so expansions with high damage probably just have more melee. Also worth noting is that many of the best defensive abilities are now flat damage reductions instead of percentages. This incentivises deckbuilders to run higher base damage champs.
I think its good that new releases are in the top. Its when they also are in top with unique abilities for the game/faction it really can get broken. Thanks for all the data, couldnt really read all before i got bored, but its a good thing some can. about +DMG for groups, it is very powerful but you need to survive that long, used to try to play this with FF IS dwarfs, they can muster up so much +DMG they all go insane 20-30DMG units but its not a winning strategy since its so slow, and so weak against enemy AOE. but very very fun to try to get it to work. (drive, commander, drunk dwarfs, battlemaster, macadamize, warcry, warbanner, inspire, armorer...) Now if there where less ignore defense AOE abilities, these playstyles would be very powerful. I have no problem with heavy hitting base DMG units, but when a 20DMG unit has 80% dmg AOE it gets broken. Thanks for these type of threads
@kalasle One thing I didn't think to take into account was the reduction to all heals, this might also be why it seems damage has gone up higher than it actually has to me. I know it's gone up, but whether or not it's gone up much higher is debatable, I think 2 major factors I didn't take into account, healing, and the increase of damage on ranged champs specifically.
This is a good point that I completely forgot to mention as well. The changes to things like Heal Champ 3 and Heal Mass 3, along with the general reduction of Wrath healing, probably helps shape our perceptions of damage -- and might contribute to that sense that individual champion damage has increase? I say that because now it seems like every individual champion hits harder and the hits last longer, whereas large conflicts were more defined by one-rounding prior to the heal changes (though, as you've said, not just because of healing).
