Why do G'hern suck so much?

I decided to make a Moga BG for old time's sake and I'm legit having trouble picking 5. I had to settle for 4(momma, general, overlord and sooth) plus Dirge for now. Like I get they decided to take ranged surge out from most things in the game but some of these melee ones don't even have Surge. Who was in charge of this mess?

 

Well, Thrower and Isangoma lost it. I just don't get the point of most melee G'hern. Losing your 70-80 nora investment that your entire gimmick relies on(ignoring helms and relics for G'hernless) because it had to run up to something and get a hit in sucks.

I cba to redesign them. I can tell you why they don't work if that helps and then you can consider whether those make sense or what. But I can tell you right now I have no reason to run more than half of them.

 

To further reiterate on this: having some sort of outline saying as to what makes them not work and what parts of them are fun will be beneficial to a potential brainstorm that may follow.

 

Yeah. Stuff like Juggler worked well in mixed SP because it boosted the good splashable moglings like Raider or Chef while also having good synergy in FS/SP granting death novas to hippos and stuff. But a lot of the older G'hern like Razorback also used to have their own niche(perseverance, pummel, surge 2 beater) or Tyrant(Nemesis and Surge 2 cheapo). Some of those were lost somewhere down the line so they ended up surgeless subpar beaters with overseer tacked on.

edit: These melee G'hern don't have Surge

• Mogahern
  
• Overseer
  
• Punisher
• Taskmaster
• Razorback
• Rager

 

So what I'm gathering from this is that a fair bunch of G'hern simply lost the tools that created a niche for them or lost their identities altogether and right now just act as a weird bag of stats?

 

Whatever the outcome of this discussion is, please leave g'hern general out of it.

 

Some of them do things, but they're in this weird place where they'd be better off not being a G'hern so they could do those things better in a theme like Cyclops, Voil or Hyaenids because the moment they become a G'hern, they give up those racial benefits and get sandbagged with Overseer plus the demanding task of babysitting Mogas in AoE. A design for a G'hern that runs up to stuff leaving all the ranged moga behind doesn't work because then he gets one-rounded and all your stuff is getting -1 SPD and -3 DMG, which is losing 12~ nora in stats for every G'hernbound unit out when G'hernbound itself is only like, what, -8? It's up to you to mess it up. You need a 70+ nora G'hern out and sometimes Mika to prevent being AoE spelled to death just to keep that investment healthy.

He's one of the 4 I'm using. That guy has been auto since it came out. Is flagbearer still bugged?

 

When was it bugged? For the last year it's consistently done what it says it does.

I think semis are a good point of reference for doing what ghernbound/overseer is trying to do.
A bunch of champs have an ability that makes them efficient if a certain outcome is met. If it isn't met, those champs are inefficient.
The big difference with semis is that there are loads of non-champ sources of this efficiency AND the champ-based sources also have the same situationally efficient abiity (which is essentially set to always on) AND there are lots of other things that you can do with that source of efficiency (such as drown or undertow) AND the race also has a secondary "racial" on top of that efficiency (mirefolk resurgance/whatever the other ones are called).

I am definitely not advocating that you turn moga/ghern into a clone of semiaquatics, but there are surely some lessons here if you want to smooth out what is essentially an efficiency transfer that is built into the ghern/moga dynamic. Also, as a brief aside, sustainer was a meta champ very recently and I *think* it still had overseer base, so it's possible for a ghern to overcome the efficiency loss even without moga, however unlikely.

 

Yeah, but that was because he was dirt a cheap healing source so people are willing to look past the sandbags for that utility. Same thing happened to Medic and Voil Errandboy which were just really efficient healers in vaccum. It's also why people will often play Moga Chef even without G'herns out. It's just a repeat of the Glowing Slider craze.

 

So if you're looking for some g'hern suggestions, I have a few.

G'hern brithmother. 6 speed, remove gift of ferility from u2. replace with empowered range, grant death nova something, and idk. lower cd on summon moga to 5.

Isangoma: replace resistance magical with cripple or inhibiting touch. add life siphon to u2

overlord: opportunistic to u2

G'hern rager: if siesm is changed and become 12 nora cheaper, this guy will be really solid

razorback: replace perserverance with overseer, or just overseer on base

soothsayer: idk

taskmaster: idk, perhaps drop range to 1 and give it a bit more hp. or up its range to 3 and surge on u1 instead of something

tyrant: remove bastion of will. u1 changed to enrage 3, tough 2/3, battlemaster 2/3

gluttonous overseer: too strong!

Also a thing to consider is how all these guys interact with cultural contamination, which I feel stifles both moga and kanen in their respective ff themes by allowing abuse of ranged g'hern in kanen as pack leaders and giving moga extra attacks. This restricts g'hern in particular because pack leader is the most valuable of the abilities gained. Buffing g'hern with CC in its current state could allow for abuse of CC on g'hern.

 

mogahern 2 non basic attacks is really nice to have in moga. also sentry 3 b/c he can see farther than everyone

 

Actually surge probably would just be better than power attack. A bit of both I think. If you're running theme moga you have no flying, and that extra bit of spell presence is nice for better placement of avalanche or a whispers on a ranged.

edit i guess you could run a moga aviator