Last attempt at saving UD

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by nepyonisdead, Nov 14, 2017.

  1. badgerale

    badgerale Warchief of Wrath

    I'll take that challenge
     
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  2. Regulate

    Regulate I need me some PIE!

    http://forums.poxnora.com/index.php?threads/relocate-demon-and-demonologist.26821/

    I deliberately avoided suggesting anything with cd1 beckon demon being brought back as I could see why you removed it

    Edit: Where i put beckon demon that's assuming it stays as it is now: cd3.

    I forgot they changed name to relocate: demon, that's all
     
  3. nepyonisdead

    nepyonisdead I need me some PIE!

    fair let me know when

    and it wasnt a challenge but to prove to Mr' FW himself that demons arent very strong or even above average strong
     
  4. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    How is this:

    1: Mobility enabling

    Stats and base abilities
    7 dmg / 6 spd / 1 def / 44 hp
    Nora cost: 62

    Attack: Physical
    Beckon Demon
    Grant: Mobility

    Upgrade set 1
    Swap 3: default
    Call of the Hunter: +2 nora
    Relocate: Ally: +4 nora

    Upgrade set 2

    Initiative 1: default
    Shatter: +1 nora

    ~

    Not bringing back Beckon Demon? It literally has Beckon Demon.

    And it has Relocate: Ally on U1, which is just 1 non-racial version of Relocate: Demon. So what is Beckon Demon here?

    Are you saying this is the same as Relocate: Demon?
     
  5. badgerale

    badgerale Warchief of Wrath


    Cool, I'll be on in about 2 hours from now I think.

    (I have to wait in a park in São Paulo for my wife to catch a Firking Pokémon)
     
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  6. Alakhami

    Alakhami I need me some PIE!

    I didn't mean to accent my first sentence (until the comma) -- frankly, the interactions aren't that strong to make a theme that shares race with Demons suffer (although Demon Shield, Acrid Smoke and Surge: Demon are all pretty powerful). What I meant was that if Minotaurs were Demons, then their racial stuff (like Dimension Door) would transfer on Demons and if that was the case Minotaurs would never get such stuff because it would make UD broken as Firk. This is, in my opinion, the main reason why UD themes don't thrive -- they simply don't get a good chance in the first place.
    Example: Imps are squishy; One way of fixing that is giving them boost; Why don't we do that? Well... :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017
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  7. xaznsoulx

    xaznsoulx Supreme Dream Team 夢想 隊

    Our faction believes in sacrifice
     
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  8. nepyonisdead

    nepyonisdead I need me some PIE!

    I am down and please if I do win this all i ask is that you aim to convince the council that UD themes deserve to be as powerful as the rest, we can help in discussing how but lets break that glass ceiling already
     
  9. Regulate

    Regulate I need me some PIE!

    Yeah, sorry. It is the same as relocate:demon - clarified in an edit above. Came up with that stuff not long after the thread was posted so it was a bit of a rush job. I think my opening sentence basically says "i know you're not bringing back CD1 so here's some other ideas"

    So that one would have 2 swap abilities - either 2x relocates or relocate+swap/call

    Might be too much to have 2x relocate but was just a general idea.
     
  10. themacca

    themacca Master of Challenges

    I don't recall making a statement on their comparitive strength to those things. I'd rather discuss a themes strength on it's own merits.

    Speaking of which they have
    Good tanks,
    Strong cc
    High damage
    Best range in UD
    Fast champions (2 of which are very durable & high damage)
    A global damage spell that can easily hit over 20 per cast.
    Some powerful sub synergies
    Swarm
    Most utility abilities in the game

    So yeah obvs weak
     
  11. themacca

    themacca Master of Challenges

    @Sokolov don't change demonologist please
     
  12. badgerale

    badgerale Warchief of Wrath

    You don't need my help to do that, I'm not a faction rep anymore. your better off making threads like this if you want changes.

    Even if I don't agree with most of what you said, I do agree there are aspects of UD that could be improved - bleed is bad, imps are lackluster.

    I also agree that we need more mobility options -- though as sok said this has been something that has been pushed for a while and is why runes like BE, secret meeting, and avarice get made. They haven't quite had the impact that was hoped and it's a good discussion to have about it.
     
  13. Etherielin

    Etherielin The Floof Cultist

    @themacca Daily reminder that Grimlic's Treachery is bugged and hits Demon Elves.
     
  14. nepyonisdead

    nepyonisdead I need me some PIE!

    Good tanks? umm like what? brood lord kinda tank ? or the bone fracture skele? or perhaps the jakei vanguard?

    strong cc? from what again? blood bow ....annd....bloodbow?

    high damage? lolz its not even higher than yetis xD

    best range in UD?? more like only range in UD and thats a 93 hero so yeah obviously very practical all the time :)

    most utility abilities ? like what again?

    AND last but certainly not bloody least

    a 45 nora spell that needs 10 elves or so to be on the board....Bro do you even UD?? if u have that many champs and havent won yet just surrender
     
  15. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    I mean... I don't think I get this.

    Yes, it's true if Minotaurs were just Demons you'd have this problem, but they can be Demon/Minotaur and be fine? How would this prevent Minotaurs from working if we gave them Demon also? The original contention was that not being Demons is what helps Minotaurs, but it seems to me what you are arguing for is more that having a non-Demon race is what helps, rather than not having Demon at all is what helps.

    Meanwhile, other themes like Fire and Bleed key off mechanics, not races (like Frost and Poison doesn't care about race either).

    For many reasons besides Demon:
    • Because those abilities are strictly limited to specific themes now
    • Because they are supposed to be squishy and giving them HP based abilities wouldn't make sense thematically
    And if we wanted to, we could just do Boost: Imp - where the Boost: X paradigm does still exist for Boost: Beast and Boost: Construct.
     
  16. Alakhami

    Alakhami I need me some PIE!

    Dude, like honestly... Don't embarass yourself.
    The only moderately good tanks that they have is if they're played with a sub beast theme, and you know, those are larged sized units that can't really do anything other than attack and one of them has berserker.
    Sure, the only good CC is Griefbearer and I admit he's a great rune but how on earth can you call that great when themes of other factions have a variety to choose from of such?
    Sure, high damage, which yet again can be quite easily achievable by other factions through easier methods (I mean how often can you really trigger Cull when playing a good player?!)
    Best range in UD because of what, Grimlic and Flameslingers? That's not range, dude, that's just one expensive damage dealer and 2 pseudo-range units. UD range sucks, end of story.
    Which are those fast champions? DEP?
    Easily? Are you assuming that you have 10 champions on board every game? You gotta be kidding me.
    Mhm, Nefari Ressurection and... Oh wait, that's it.
    Demonologist is cool, sure, but not that amazing when you actually run it.
    I can name you at least 10 themes that have far greater utillity in my experience.
    Note that I've played deep elves for a very long time and have mixed and splitted them (with KF) in various ways, so I know what I'm talking about.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017
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  17. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Ah thanks :)
     
  18. Alakhami

    Alakhami I need me some PIE!

    That's just an example of one abillity, there are multiple others suggesting how it hampers the improvement of UD themes (mind you, I'm not saying that Race: Demon is the only reason they don't thrive, I'm just saying it's one of the main ones). In general, not only are UD themes undeveloped while other factions have nearly every race thematized, the spells, relics and abillities of UD's themes are lackluster in quantity & quality compared to others. There is literally no point for me in running Spiders, Fire amp, Deep elves, Vampyres, Bleed or Goblins (I know they're not that much of a serious theme but still) -- if I was craving for efficiency -- when I can get a proper payback for the investment that I make in making my deck confined by race/class with themes from other factions.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017
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  19. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    I think this is a general issue, but it's also a reasonable one. Humans have a general bias towards Anchors: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchoring

    But this is why I keep asking people not to focus on what changed, but to try and use OTHER anchors to come to an idea about what the rune SHOULD be. It doesn't matter if it's been nerfed or buffed or even what it is now. Let's just think about what we want it to be.
     
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  20. themacca

    themacca Master of Challenges

    It wasn't doing this to me a few days ago?
     

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