Can the fw bonus be changed for 1 patch

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by DiCEM0nEY, Jan 26, 2018.

  1. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY I need me some PIE!

    Yes, I am always improving as a player.

    Even from a design perspective, the bonus is really bad because it forces players to design decks which will make games last as long as possible. I don't have a problem with long games, but I have a problem with games needing to be long due to the innate mechanics of the faction., especially with how rune reveals and mulligans work, exacerbating the problem for the most part.

    From a balance perspective, I also think the bonus has a low power level.
     
  2. bambino

    bambino I need me some PIE!

    for me ,a non FW player, this statement is key, heres why,
    to a fw players whos used to things as they are, the bonus might seem lame, ud with there big damage, sl being all tuff, etc.
    But by the time im in latemid/late game, battles have been fought across the map, and if i havent gained controlling share of the board, its downhill,
    I notice my champ selection starts looking a bit thin, cooldowns times of my best champs are like 7 and better,
    , in my rune dock I have a spells , maybe some equips and a couple of champs,, that are more for utility then board control, not much help.
    Meanwhile my opponent just pulled out serkan for his 2nd visit to the battle! (sheesh I feel like I just killed him 2 rounds ago :( )
    and thats why I agree with the post.
    consider this scenario:
    fw vs anyone.
    2 font and shrine each.
    if you were to go tit fot tat in battle , assuming roughly an even amount of champs dying throughout, but no one advancing,,,, just both holding ground,
    Its just my experience that fw will eventually consume you ,, doesnt matter how much nora you have,, all the nora in the forglar swamps wont save you if you have no champs to summon. FW can sit there and wait, and wait , and wait till you make a mistake , or die off slowly.
    Of course this takes a skilled (patient) FW player.
    idk. thats just been my experience with good fw players.


    edit: if the goal is to hurry the game up,, then dont know what to tell you.:)
     
  3. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY I need me some PIE!

    If a player can play a serkan twice, it is probably very low Elo. Most players don't use serkan at all outside of liches. He's not very good.

    Also if you are only going tit for tat vs an FW player, with "even" exhanges you deserve to lose. Their entire faction does not have a bonus.
     
  4. bambino

    bambino I need me some PIE!

    well as far as going tit for tat,, sometimes I get the upper hand sometimes I dont, sometimes the battle is somewhat even, (aka
    tit for tat) Also im probably not as skilled as you , just able to bowl through my opponents defences at will, like you seem to.
    why go tit for tat, when I can just win? lol

    also I can't speak for fw players like you can
    ,, but ive been seeing alot of sekans sitting in dmz lately.

    as far as the bonus (if u remember , thats the topic) I mean,, thats kind of the way there meant to be played, no? you wanna change the whole style of play "cuz games take to long"? perhaps a new fac for you is in order?
    then something like this:
    whats next , stop zergz from zerging cuz u dont like the word zerg? :)
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
  5. Anima26

    Anima26 I need me some PIE!

    Nah.
     
  6. Destorum

    Destorum I need me some PIE!

    just because your improving as a player does not mean your improving at your faction another one could very easily suit you so much better and you not even realise it.

    anywho basically you just don't want to feel forced into long games yes? then don't play the attrition based faction or if you do play the more mid range style decks that they have available (I have a couple of those if you need a hand) I don't really understand why your so set on cancelling out other faction bonuses is the way to go, is it you just feel cheated with your own champs or because you don't like playing into the long game?
     
    themacca likes this.
  7. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY I need me some PIE!

    Wouldn't change anything because I'd still be forced to face FW players, who are rewarded by making the game last longer.

    I do actually try to play the long game virtually every game, or to press advantages if I think dark rising / Mobi / ED will snowball me hard to a win early enough. Every situation calls for something different, but in general I try to deploy a cheap pawn such as broken bones to force my opponent to lose efficency and to give me more options.

    I like canceling the opp bonus as a bonus because it already has so much synergy with the factions mechanics, and it is innately balanced in a sense, especially if coupled with a somewhat weaker or and situational font bonus, which id argue FW has at least for the moment. I think it has more synergy than the current bonus has with a majority of the FW runes, and I think it will open up more exciting decks, such as witches and vampires to name a few obvious ones.
     
  8. calisk

    calisk I need me some PIE!

    from a technical point of view he's not wrong the the FW bonus is poor, strictly speaking it's simply inferior to any stat/nora based mechanic as they are front loaded not back loaded, and any unit that does not die or have mechanics that benefit from dieing basically have no bonus at all.

    the crux comes in the fact that FW does have many units that trigger or benefit off these mechanics, and past that it used to be that they had the best font bonus because of the fact that there faction bonus was a bit inferior to others.

    as I said before though changing it would do more damage then good, unless an extensive amount o testing, planning, and redesigns were done, and even then it could go horribly wrong.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
  9. themacca

    themacca Master of Challenges

    It's not about being able to play serkan multiple times, it's about the protection that serkan can receive because of the other units that can die multiple times. The whole point for FW decks is synergy we're able to have that more than any other faction, we aren't forced to run 2xs of key runes because if we lose 1 it's gone for half an hour, & we are facilitated higher risks with smaller punishments which makes trading a significantly more beneficial move (on top of that we generally recieve additional bonuses)

    Bottom line, the only Bonus that is acceptable for FW is 1 that either adds on top of the 1 we have already or the 1 we have now.

    If you don't like it, go play IS
     
  10. Anima26

    Anima26 I need me some PIE!

    I love how flavorful FWs bonus is. Just wanted to say that. Flavor doesnt = balance or anything, i just really like how flavorful it is.
     
  11. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY I need me some PIE!

    A few points.

    First, I agree for the most part, it is. But flavorful things are also very polarizing, that's pretty much a fact - look at Zed or yasou or fizz in LOL, or worms in FW. Polarizing things fit better as a theme within a faction as opposed to the backbone such as the bonus. If every FW unit had immunity x for a bonus, you'd see games where u certain decks, but would be at a disadvantage else wise. That's sort of the problem with the design of the bonus, CD is probably the least versatile resource which can be modified. It is always going to push towards long games no matter what percirved choice the other player makes.

    Second
    FW would still be extremely unique with this change, and imo, flavorful, since it would be the only faction which cancels the opp bonus.

    And lastly,

    I don't think much flavor would be lost, since it would allow more unique strategies overall with FW (that's imo).
     
  12. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY I need me some PIE!

    I'm not the best serkan player, because I don't know every utility a player can throw at me. And I'm also of the opinion that trying to predict what the enemy player will do with immediate effects like spells etc is largely a waste of time, since factions have way too many effective diverse options. When i play a game like TES legends, i can predict what cards will be thrown at me very effectively because the card pool and each color has a much clearer expected utility / game plan. So I know I'm probably not ********.

    With that being said, why bother powering up serkan, investing so much nora, when he can get fading recollection and lose everything? Or hammer strikes? Or drowned? Oh he's on dmz? How about reverberating blast? Boulder trap? The lose all ap teleport thing?

    There's so many ways to counter serkan, he doesn't seem worth the price. Unless you have lich discount and maybe the item that gives soul sift.

    I don't think 1 champion that can win the game outright is necessarily good for the game either. I mean a strategy revolving around 1 draw would be frustrating to play against. I like the current power level of supers / single champ strats personally: weak.
     
  13. themacca

    themacca Master of Challenges

    The fw font bonus is a god send. Elsari bazaar gives serkan 9 ap per turn plenty of time to hit retreat. Through out the game. If you ever do make risky plays with him. Soul collector is a thing so is death guard despoil and ancients protection.

    The reason the strat works is because it eventually snowballs to such a ridiculous proportion that there is not much that can be done to prevent it. On top of that FW DB super champs regularly have 4 total champions that all snowball simultaneously in xulos serkan and 2x genesis lich (this deck uses vitality not adaptive since your spells rarely get priority over continuous deploying)

    There are plenty of ways to protect your big units and most of them use less resources than the things they counter.
     
  14. Michael

    Michael I need me some PIE!

    I have been playing bonusless fw meta for quite some time.
    Currently in top 20.

    Instead of bonusless meta, why don't we have a patch when we get to change faction bonuses?
    E.g FFFW deck with FFUD bonus during April Fools Day.
     
  15. calisk

    calisk I need me some PIE!

    FF st gets the ud bonus you can have the SP bonus =P
     
  16. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY I need me some PIE!

    I can't agree that it is easy to protect serkan, or even cost efficient. Firstly, he is a 100 nora drop. Secondly, he starts out with a mere 12 damage.

    Elsari bazaar is another added cost, as is tome of hate, which will slow down your vengeful stacks.

    Realistically, you won't deploy serkan unless you are contesting the mid font, which is going to cost a lot to maintain with very little going to serkan, and probably slowing down your decks game plan

    But the most important part of all this, is that serkan really isn't much better than the average SL, ST, or IS squad, who have imo better bonuses for the super strat
     
  17. themacca

    themacca Master of Challenges

    Super Serkan is a 10 movement per turn (after bazaar) self healing, high range hitting champion with an AOE ability a relocation ability & infinite HP & Damage scaling.

    Yes he is the best option
     
  18. ghklf

    ghklf I need me some PIE!

    We don't have to change FW bonus but I think FW bonus is not as good as other bonuses.

    We can have FW runes changed to have more synergy.

    For example, does something good to urself or something bad to ur opponent when a champion goes off cooldown or when it is deployed AGAIN.

    The goal of the change is that to make every FW theme and meta have a reasonable use of the FW bonus.
     
  19. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY I need me some PIE!

    Teleport 2 is a sandbag imo. I'd rather have the nora cost in hp, or at the very least tp1 + a discount.

    I actually prefer whisper ghasts recently, since they can drain and relocate units from your fonts, and cost only 73 nora compared to... 97 to 101?

    Which kind of brings me to the point I was making - 'super' champs are ineffective, because there are many units in the 70 to 80 nora range which can do the same thing, and you can field more of them. Especially in better factions, such as ST and SL. Less risk of losing the entire game to an obscure rune imo.

    And yes, I understand how the bonus helps serkan in some ways, but i don't really think that is a fair point - other bonuses help other factions to snow ball as well.
     
  20. themacca

    themacca Master of Challenges

    He has teleport 1 not 2. Which is great, ensures he can't be pinned down by melee units. His hp scales infinitely cause of bcs.

    Which is the point. It is comparable to the other bonuses because it fits well into the factions playstyle
     

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