How do I beat st?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Runegod, Oct 12, 2019.

  1. Runegod

    Runegod I need me some PIE!

    Just played a game against a flying 67 hp, 6 defense, damage frost shield, fascinate, champ ? I mean what was I supposed to do against that ? Every time I hurt the dragon, my opponent just dropped a crystal phoenix down, and boom it's like nothing happened.

    I'm using voil, I win quite a few games, but i've played like 8 of my last 20 games against st and just have no answers no matter the theme people are using. Is st just that much better ?

    I thought about using distract, but he had a jakei cleansing unit like 5 spaces behind the dragon, then I tried retreating, he just followed me right into my fonts, because well he had 67 hp, 6 defense, and fascinate. The closest thing hp wise I have is a rockcharger warbeast for 86 nora, with less defense, 2 less abilities, and 10 more nora.

    The more I look through st, the more I find similar units for 70-80 nora with monster stats.

    How does everyone else deal with st, besides joining and using st lol.
     
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  2. Runegod

    Runegod I need me some PIE!

    Lonx Icelord
    ice fang
    frostfall hydra
    borderguard elite
    crystal dragon
    elemental core
    jakei extinguisher

    all the no-khan-do crap

    Am I over reacting or is st just really strong ?
     
  3. Etherielin

    Etherielin The Floof Cultist

    ST is the strongest faction in the game and I usually just concede a win to them unless I have a highly advantageous start.
     
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  4. aseryen

    aseryen I need me some PIE!

    Voil King Ruubgaal is great for setting up; SP has several answers for ST, Rock Trap and ThunderHeadTotem are good relics to run as well for their effects.

    It's a good point to add in an alternative win condition, if you can support it, running some kind of blitz/stealth so that you separate their units as much as possible. Because of the higher HP and kit that ST brings they can support both Setup&Stall to counter your playstyle; best you can do is know what units work with what is being deployed and do your best to counter that.

    Crystal Pheonix is a Nora hit everytime they deploy, and if you are killing it you are actually helping your opponent, think of Crystal Pheonix as one of the best mobile Relics around and if it isn't contesting a font, leave it alone. All that being said, you may have to do a little extra math for your battlegroup, find out if you can be a font down for X amount of turns; from there you can determine if you are ok contesting a font or blitzing their shrine. In a game where HP becomes the win condition, the Shrine is your only answer, some match ups may let you get by with a different playstyle but ultimately you'll have to commit to one tactic and proceed from there.

    If you can post a bg. windows 10 lets you capture the screen very easily; there may be a rune or two that can be replaced. Additionally, if you're not mulling over at least 35-40 runes, your bg is incomplete...replacing those intermittently is another tactic to keep yourself focused on counter play.
     
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  5. Runegod

    Runegod I need me some PIE!

    I don't really like deploying relics against st, Frostfall heritage and what not.

    Yeah Crystal phoenix is a nora hit, but you can't exactly let an endless devotion, flying champ, with endless auras, roam the board and drop relics in all your fonts. Also is it really a nora hit, if it keeps 400 nora worth of champs in a safe spot ? Short term hit, for long term gains and what have you. As an sp player I can be down a font for a little bit and be okay, but when 2 or even 3 champs of your struggle to kill one opposing champ that is just running at you face, it's a little much.

    I play voil, as that's the only runes I really have, so maybe i'll post my bg in the sp forums and get some help.

    Thank you
     
  6. Runegod

    Runegod I need me some PIE!

    Just not seeing the power from fs or kf, they seem to be lacking any sort of punch, and really lack good beefy tanks, and if they have tanks, they are pricey.
     
  7. aseryen

    aseryen I need me some PIE!

    Tortun would be the tankiest for both iirc, that was my first competitive theme but has since been reworked. Their playstyle hasn't changed all too much, but has since lost the competitive edge, however it seems like those are runes to try out once you have a few more themes to support what you already own.

    Regarding ST; It may be a setup that is poorly matched with your bg, there are answers but that would need to focus on your playstyle and what youre willing to forge. I'm keen on splits, even if just to run a few select runes; ultimately if you're having fun then you're simply stuck in a gamers dilemma of fail till you succeed, consider this elo hell more or less and at the end of the day you win some and you loose some.

    If there are specific Voil you would prefer to play, and ones you are ok replacing, that also helps direct some of the response. Otherwise most of what anyone can say is anecdotal. FF makes the conversation simple enough, it gets really interesting once you play Splits.
     
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  8. aseryen

    aseryen I need me some PIE!

    Rock Trap is deployed stealthed so Frostfall Heritage is a non-issue regarding that spell, Thunderhead Totem is also fine to play considering that FrostFall Heritage is a counter, nora sink, which has a very specific function. Your best play when you know how a faction plays is to force their hand, don't allow for the positioning of XYZ if any of those variables hinder your end objective, which is to destroy the shrine. If your opponent plays Frostfall Heritage after you used ThunderHeadTotem or RockTrap; and they put you in a bad spot, the conversation isn't abount what runes to play but is instead how to play in response to XYZ.

    Additionally, if Crystal Pheonix is being played in conjunction with SoulTapLuminescence then it's about positioning and denying your opponent as much as possible, you are correct on the guard/buffer Crystal Phoenix creates but you have two options, deny their attacks or deny their abilities, both of which require a choice on which runes to play specifically against ST which may or may not be ideal for other match ups.

    TL;DR Echo Chamber seems to counter everything you are having concerns with, after that it depends on your bg composition and how efficient it is over your opponents playstyle and yours.
     
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  9. aseryen

    aseryen I need me some PIE!

    Crowned Sauropod w/ Resistance:Frost & Bodyguard paired with Magnify Beast is a non-relic module, although that's a heavy investment over running relics, imo one spell is still not enough to be concerned with. If this was Drown, that's another conversation entirely.
     
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  10. L33Ch

    L33Ch I need me some PIE!

    If u play voil consider using surge units , combined with all the bat generation methods this faction offers. Against frost amp , hard counters like Idol of Elements are useful as is Slaver's Whip. Check-out Gnomes channel https://www.youtube.com/user/gnomes24/videos and watch how the top players do it. In particular BallBaller...
     
  11. Etherielin

    Etherielin The Floof Cultist

    KF's power is in the fact they simply outrun you and can stack a ton of damage buffs from spells, abilities and equips. KF and FS are also really good at generating AP in high amounts in many of their themes. To give you an example - KF Trees can generate 6 AP globally and 3 AP in an AoE in a single turn through spells and abilities, meaning that - despite their low speed - they would be able to triple tap you.
     
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  12. guokamoli54

    guokamoli54 I need me some PIE!

    What ap gen does FS have other than Horn of Order? I guess leap kinda counts? Not sure what im missing?
     
  13. poxrooster

    poxrooster The Pox Chameleon

    How do trees generate a 6 AP global?
     
  14. guokamoli54

    guokamoli54 I need me some PIE!

    Gotcha i haven't played an circadian so didint realize that and ya slipwater is nuts in the aquatic decks.
     
  15. Gnomes

    Gnomes Forum Royalty

    Imo voil are one of the tier 0 bgs in the game. Also if sp has 2 fonts I think generally they beat st. But if it's one font to one font it's more even.

    But at frost and beasts are definitely tierb 1 or 0 too
     
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  16. JazzMan1221

    JazzMan1221 Better-Known Member

    He's probably thinking 2x Lash Down, which each give 2 AP, then another 2 from Battle Hymn on an Elven Bard.
     
  17. guokamoli54

    guokamoli54 I need me some PIE!


    Ya i really enjoy voil the bg is super flexible
     
  18. Etherielin

    Etherielin The Floof Cultist

    Lash Down and Elven Bard can get you 6 AP across the entire board. :p

    As far as I recall FS has the highest amount of invigorate champs - they also have a lot of units that relocate allies, enemies and/or give/save AP as well as good AP generating spells. Whether or not it's efficient is a different matter.
     
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  19. guokamoli54

    guokamoli54 I need me some PIE!

    Ya that makes sense i guess my thought was something like mobi from fw so i was confused lol
     
  20. Lushiris

    Lushiris I need me some PIE!

    I agree that Frost theme and Elementals are among the best in the game right now, but I don't think they're that far ahead of some battlegroups from other factions(like Firk for example); I can't say, however, that I'm unbiased. I can at least help you with pointing some of ST's weak spots.

    First of all we have equipment. ST doesn't have an equipment removal option aside from Shatter on champions and Rebound, which very few people actually run. That's one reason why frost BGs are good, since they have both Arcadon and Frostfall Icewisp as options. Other than that we have just yetis and beasts, but Snow Lerper isn't a great option, despite being the only one. Lonx have Facilitator, Yetis have Scout and that's it, if I'm not wrong( which I might be) that's all of ST's equipment removal. Ferrens have no equipment removal, and unless you're running a Snow lerper in a Flying BG, it won't have it either.

    Second there's Super Champions. ST is great at making them(only loses to IS), but countering them is very hard for most ST BGs. Frost's sheer amount of AoE's MAY be an exception depending on how the BG is built, but a it's not uncommon for an ST player to suffer against things like tough, high defense and lots of healing - ST has no counter to any kind of healing. You can find a couple sources of Strike and Sunder like Keeneye Crown, Lonx Striker and Chilling Scale, but they're normally limited to on rune per deck. Elusive,Dodge, Block, Nohkan Do ,Evasive and Reflexes rarely work unless you opponent doesn't have a Halberd of J'thir at hand, which is a very heavy counter to those abilities. Ultimately a ST player will Gale Force an enemy super champion to try killing it, but it can be countered by physical resistance/immunity/rock eater, Unstoppable, and obviously good positioning (although sometimes no amount of good placement will save you from a well planned Gale sandwich).

    On third place there's detection, which might not be a huge weakness but can be exploited. ST does have a few global damage spells and large AoE abilities like Frostbite, Hypothermia(good old Black Ice) or Frostfall Dragon's Absolute Zero - which aren't commonly used - that reveal champions that won't resist their damage via Tough or Combat Awareness 2(Garin for Example). As for Detection itself, ST only has a handful of viable champions with the ability, but they're sparse and as such ST still can suffer against good players running stealth. Yetis are probably the theme that best detects champions in the game through Abominable(which can be beaten by good positioning but that's not easy to pull off).

    I probably forgot something, but this is a good start. I'd post on how to deal with ST's strong points too, but that would make the post gigantic. Might leave it for later if it's needed. Sorry for any typo. Feel free to disagree. Hope someone reads.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2019
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