First Impressions...

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Andralexis, Jun 26, 2014.

  1. Poxjedi

    Poxjedi I need me some PIE!

    I think this statement really hit home for me. I'm absolutely livid about some of the changes to FS runes, but with this revamp one thing has been made crystal clear. DOG, owns pox and they are going to what they feel is best for the game. Even if I dont agree with some of the changes, kudos to the guys for sucking up and doing the risky things they think are right for the game. Too the people think that they are out to ruin the game your idiots, someone had to pull there own money out of there pocked to pay SOE for the game & to think that they are willfully trying to destroy there investment is beyond idiotic.

    Now please
    #1. Give FS angel back her Cleanse
    #2 96 nora for Firk Diplomat, O rly?
    #3 Gekaal, High One Please give him back his heal.

    I'll stop for now. I dont agree with all the changes, but I trust that you guys are trying to do the best you can. Keep of the good work.
     
  2. Mercer Skye

    Mercer Skye I need me some PIE!

    I've been lurking in the shadows, as I've had little to no time to try and even play, and most of what I'm getting from all the threads so far; Insanely knee-jerk overreacting.

    Change is painful, especially change that's aiming to get something back in line. To that, nothing but applause from me in what I've seen so far. Yeah, there's a few things that have me scratching my head, but none of it is in regards to the 'formula pricing' that went into re-costing. There's some outliers, there always is, but I see them as just that so far, champs that slipped through the change-making cracks during the revamp.

    A quite lol worthy statement- ''It's as if they don't know the game".....Anyone who has stated or thought that since the revamp hit....think about that statement deeply for a good two minutes. Two of the three people that originally built Pox (And arguably, from what Gedden said in the interview, DID build all of Pox with addendums from their partner) being accused of not knowing the game....

    Yeah, no. I think they fully well understood just what the game had become. NOTHING like what their original intention was for Pox. Are 'single-minded' champs that need to work together to accomplish victory a bad design for Pox? That's dependent on individual opinion, but it's more or less been stated with this revamp that this is where Pox was SUPPOSED to be. In the coming weeks, I have nothing but faith that the outliers will be brought in line, necessary formula adjustments will be made, and we'll see them dig into the task of re-tooling the non-champ lineups.

    But I don't want to badger the people that feel most victimized by this. I equate it very much to Stockholm Syndrome. People just too used to being bullied and beat up by hyper undercosted champions that were doing well and beyond too much for their cost, holding whole game-boards on their own, that well, they've just become accustomed to it, and are actually expecting it.

    Trying to remain objective, I'm seeing that most of the costing (Most of, but not all) is very similar to the costing that used to exist when we could modify just about everything on our own. Which sadly, I don't think we'll ever be coming back to. Which I whole-heartedly believe this new system is trying to find a harmony with, combining the much more static system we just stepped away from and the original system.

    The bright shining light for me, at the moment, is with the formula system in place, Power Creep likely has the best chance now to be kept in check, now that the Old Temple of Creep has been nuked back into the Stone Age.

    Thanks for reading,

    Mercer Skye
     
    enkiadu and Nautilak like this.
  3. Prami

    Prami I need me some PIE!

    What these people probably mean to say, is that DOG doesn't understand what they (the player) likes about the game. Whatever vision DOG has for Pox Nora, it doesn't seem to overlap with my own, and i can't imagine it will bring in new players.
     
  4. TheNidhogg

    TheNidhogg I need me some PIE!

    Pre-revamp, there were a lot of coherent themes in Pox. Because everything needed to get changed, a lot of themes are now in tatters. We should focus on rebuilding these into synergystic modules.
     
    Sepulcher and Molosse like this.
  5. davre

    davre The Benevolent Technofascist

    From what I've seen so far, damage-type amplification and surge:x are well undercosted. Summons also need to be looked at.
     
  6. Mercer Skye

    Mercer Skye I need me some PIE!

    This, and hopefully, and I have no doubt, they'll be done right this time, without lynchpin runes that are absolute musts for themes to work.
     
  7. LoganMkv

    LoganMkv I need me some PIE!

    Do you understand that powerlevel is not absolute, but relative stat?
    "Powercreep" just means that new stuff is better than old stuff. Good old shoebox buffs and balance patches were doing pretty well, but obviously not ideally. And it's exactly same now, just different runes are op or shoeboxed. And when first owl exp hits, I can bet it's going to be op as in any game ever.

    What happened in reality - the game became much more boring, lots of synergies were lost, there are much less runnable runes and themes, less possibilities for beautiful comebacks/powerturns/etc.
    But the game stayed exactly same - if you go to lobby you'll see that in mere 1 day vast majority of players already figured what is good and everyone runs same runes. Give it a week, and there would be clone wars just like before, except those people who have been actually enjoying diversity are much more limited in options now.
     
  8. Molosse

    Molosse I need me some PIE!

    Agreeing with 'Nid, in an effort to scale down some of the complexity creep it feels like some of the synergy between theme's has dropped off, would be nice to see that pushed in the future once we reach a nice medium of champion costs.
     
  9. Etherielin

    Etherielin The Floof Cultist

    I'd say that some of the themes remained relatively intact such as Wizards or Archers in KF, while gaining some solid non-theme support as well. I may be misunderstanding the concept of a theme though.
     
  10. StupidJerk

    StupidJerk I need me some PIE!

    Most consider themes to be racial-focused. For example, zombies lost Zombie Apocalypse on several of their best units, meaning that you have to last hit with units that do have it. More than that, a lot of themes that were tied together by a single unit have been devastated by the nerfing of those units. In the coming weeks, it should be DOG's goal to either make those units viable again (preferably) or to make it so each theme isn't reliant on one or two units.
     
  11. Etherielin

    Etherielin The Floof Cultist

    I am pretty sure that the entire idea of a single rune being the only theme's enabler is something DOG wanted to get rid of. If we give them some time (and suggestions), everything will be rewoven again. A fine pattern!
     
  12. StupidJerk

    StupidJerk I need me some PIE!

    I agree. Things look bleak at the moment, as a lot of people are finding their favorite runes impossible to use, but it will be easier for them to bring those runes up to a decent level now that a bottom line has been established.
     
  13. Mercer Skye

    Mercer Skye I need me some PIE!

    And my response would be; Do you understand that Pox wasn't in a state of 'power creep' but 'power rocketing'? Powerlevel may not be absolute, but we absolutely were in an abysmal state, and if you think that shoebox buffs were anything more than band-aid level speed bumps in the stale meta, I can only think that you're delusional.

    Not all the blame can be placed with SOE (Though I try my hardest), but with how things were, Pox needed to be stripped down to something, anything, that would allow a healthy amount of growth. As we were looking at it, you cannot tell me that it was healthy to have lynchpin pieces that were ridiculously hard to acquire. Zombies couldn't work well without Coragh or Warlocks, Elves/Wizards needed Enforcers, and a whole number of themes that needed runes that were just not within reach of most people. And it's nothing but delusional trying to sell that 'budget' replacements for such key pieces would make any of those theme decks competitive in any realm other than lower exotic league.

    In Reality? The complexity bloat bubble that was suffocating the game got popped. Gedden had the balls to strip the game down to a workable level so that it can be molded back into something that isn't just 'cram the latest, best things' in your bg and cookie cut your way to the top. Yeah, a lot of dull people with lack of vision are going to find ways to just build boring meta goodstuff decks....but that's how it's always been. You could build a theme with 100% viability for climbing to the top, and you'd still have Spikes ripping it apart for 'more efficient finds.' This is just the way the bulk of players work. And it's fine. And it doesn't mean that the next expansion is going to have to be 'bigger and better' than what is currently available. Just because that's been the status quo for the last couple of years under SOE's reign doesn't mean that DoG will have to drop the ball in that regard. Things can be laterally interesting and still push sales. It happens in the game world all the time, and there are plenty of profitable studios that embrace it. And given how Gedden has been talking in the interviews, I at least am sold on the notion that this is how it's going to work in expansions to come.

    Yes, things are all scary and different and 'boring.' I don't even know how it's boring. Because pieces now have to be used together? That 1300 champs have pretty much just been turned on their ear? I haven't even gotten into the game yet, and I'm reeling at how much has changed. How in the bloody blue blazes can this be boring?

    Maybe I'm going to be hitting below the belt, but I can only see it being boring for whiny, jaded, self-entitled brats that would rather have the same old auto-pilot bs cookie-cutter bgs that have been reigning for the longest. But whatever, just my opinion.
     
    Ragic, Jib, Sokolov and 1 other person like this.
  14. Sepulcher

    Sepulcher I need me some PIE!

    Yes, Dagda, it's easy to make any question sound stupid when you omit the finer points in an attempt to misrepresent it.

    I get that there's a mysterious formula. The question was, what ABOUT the formula is making so many champs have head-scratching prices?

    But never mind that, let's stamp out any discussion of the changes with condescending remarks, so we can wait for the other eleven steps of this twelve-step process. It's much more efficient to wait until it's all over before analyzing.
     
    Etherielin, StupidJerk and Baskitkase like this.
  15. Baskitkase

    Baskitkase Forum Royalty

    The PDC had a shot at pricing and pricing is terrible, I'm guessing theres some defensiveness going on. Secondly, Gedden stated he won't release the ability cost lists. Lastly, the ability costs can be reverse engineered from the upgrade costing information now that it's all been dumped into Poxbase, someone with stats smarts just needs to make it happen.
     
  16. Dagda

    Dagda Forum Royalty

    As has been said in a variety of other places, although I suppose you've simply overlooked or missed them, the extremes with many champ-stats will start cranking costs up almost exponentially. HP, I believe, is the easiest to point to for this one (definitely not the only one, though). There's also been some (more recent) internal formula fiddling that's working towards showing the impacts of all the other stats with given extremes and standards, too.

    And if you of all people are going at me for condescending remarks, I might die of irony. Aside from that though, there was a decently strong push to just wait for the champ-wave to hit before we went over things. From my end, I felt as though if we tried to balance the champs out we'd be doing it to the old standard whether we meant to or not. As well, letting it go wild for a second at least gives people a distinct impression of difference between this iteration of Pox and the older one.

    I don't think any part of the group actually thought it was going to be remotely balanced.

    I didn't have much of a shot at pricing. I was added in to the group a bit later because I was the second SL rep, as a result not all of the appropriate permissions came through. I went on to vacation rather directly. There was some time in between, but it was nowhere near enough for the devs, less so for the other council members.

    I wasn't defending myself, is my point here. I just get tired of seeing people bash on about things they don't know much about, which I suppose is an argument for me to get off the internet.

    And yeah, I'd be surprised if someone doesn't come up with what all or most of the abilities cost. I doubt the formula will ever really get cracked, just because of the manual adjustments, but the ability list should provide angry zealot fodder for aeons to come.
     
    Woffleet likes this.
  17. Sepulcher

    Sepulcher I need me some PIE!

    From the very strange ability cost comparisons I have seen (Fire Giant gets Colossal over Absorb for +1 Nora, Resilient Skeez gets Loyalty over Skeez Alliance for -2 Nora, etc.) I highly doubt that exponential stat costs is the full story. So I decided to make a post about it.

    Sorry if I didn't scour every thread before I desecrated this 11-page thread with a single absurd question.

    I wish death on no one, so you have my support in avoiding such a terrible fate. The fact remains that you were dismissive and presumptuous. I digress.

    I'm not sure what you mean by "balance the champs out." If you're referring to manual adjustments to specific champions, something that has run rampant in years past, I don't think that is necessary. Isn't adjusting the formula's internal specifications directly a way to "balance the champs out" without regressing into old habits? I just don't see why adjustments weren't made to specific abilities and stat costs when they are causing such a huge array of 100+ Nora champions.

    You're making it sound like there was a deliberate sacrifice of balance in favor of shock value with that "distinct impression of difference" comment. I'm not following the logic there.

    I can only speak for myself, but I was not "bashing" anything in my post questioning the pricing. Not every enthusiastic question is an aggressive one. Maybe they don't know much about the things because they're getting defensive responses instead of informative ones.

    Ugh, I hate multi-quote posts. It's always a sign of spiraling into a pointless conversation. I hope that I was able to clarify some points, though.
     
  18. stayflyazn

    stayflyazn Devotee of the Blood Owl

    figuring out a champs cost will always be the hardest thing in pox to determine
     
  19. Dagda

    Dagda Forum Royalty

    Bearing in mind that I don't actually remember my first post in this thread, and I'm not motivated enough to go back through and read it-

    1) No one thing is ever the whole story, Sep. I don't think anyone said otherwise. I hope not, anyhow.

    2) Apology accepted.

    3) Me? Dismissive? Pfft

    4) Adjustments were made to abilities, and still are. So far as stats goes, there are a lot of champions and a lot of stats. Everyone was wary of the formula and how it would pan out, but again (just speaking for myself) I didn't want to try balancing the champs much at all until I really saw what direction Pox was taking (ie til after the revamp hit).

    5) I don't know if the DOwlGs did or did not do that. I'm not saying it didn't feel like it a bit, but at the same time it's also more or less the approach I had in mind so given that that's how I was seeing the greater process, eh

    6) When I said "bash on about", the key word to put it into context was "about". In this case you could substitute 'ramble' for 'bash' and my meaning would be about the same. Also generally speaking I assume you've got good intentions, even if your voice sounds whiny. So far as defensive v informative goes, I'd like to think I've done a decent number of both.

    I don't really like to think that I've done a number of defensive posts, but hey.

    7) All I'm really getting out of this is that communication is a fun thing, and it's even more fun when no one is doing it right.
     
  20. Baskitkase

    Baskitkase Forum Royalty

    I need a moment to psychoanalyze why you decided to start capping your sentences.

    Does Sepulcher's emphatic articulation carry with it a sense of "stand up straight when you're talking to me boy!"

    Maybe the PDC representation has a maturational effect of its own.

    Possibly a strengthening of one of many types of dominant relationships, serious with the girlfriend? She's pregnant? Contributing to family's bills?

    This is very interesting.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2014

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