Sokolov I think the difference here that you pointed out is that Racials that trigger with Groups and Racials that effect the champ it self need to be treated differently for in and out of theme purposes. EDIT More refined. For my Spider Racial issues, I think Group Racias should be treated differently than Racials that effect the champ directly, as group racials when played out of theme will have no direct impact. As you need the "Group for it to activate." If you use a Racial outside of theme, then the nora penalty should be your penalty.
For the record, I much prefer racials as upgrades. But I want it to feel like you got a good deal for taking it. On witches again (as it is all I know much of atm) Tortun Bokor currently picks between Elsari Coven and Soul Collection. Soul Collection helps a LOT more with the curse theme due to Cursed Treasure, so it is counter-intuitive that you have to forego Elsari Coven to get it. In that case you are literally passing up on Elsari Coven... when building for a curse theme.
It's pretty much this. It's basically to costly to want to play theme, when playing champs with theme is usually opting out of whatever is 'meta' and that hurts already.
Just a heads up that its not the spiders that are bugged. Its the creep and crawl skill that is currently messed up and causing a lot of issues. There are some threads on it in the bug forum already so hopefully it gets sorted out soon.
Just a thought, could creep and crawl count friendly arthopods, therefore not all bugs need to have it to be useful
Counter question: Do you accept that a theme rune is better in its theme than out of theme ? A spider for example should be stronger in theme because the spider racical bonus is free. On top of that it should be possible to pick two upgrades. Now it is possible even if you play a spider deck *not* to choose creep and crawl because it competes with better upgrades. Yes i know there are other synergies than only the racical but a spider without creep and crawl looks silly. If you insist that a racical is optional then it would be better to remove racicals completely otherwhise it becomes incomprehensible.
k for other themes can need some other work, for race themes maibe we can aply this if you have 12(or even 14) or more champ of the same race in a deck, keeping in mind a balanced deck have 16 -18 champ so we have a range of 4 -6 not of the same race, aply bonus race to that race --- this can be aplied to class theme too the other well need more thinking , thats my idea feel free to insult me lol
It should now actually. Or at least it will work that way once creep and crawl is no longer bugged. From the June 27th patch notes:
I am fine creep and crawl as an upgrade, but I think it is way overcost. It appears to be only one nora less then climb + multiattack 1? I could see arguments for non-spider* (cinderpede, emberwasp) units not to have creep and crawl, but demonbarb should have it as at least an upgrade. *Arthropod covers what all now? spiders, scorpions, wasps, 'pedes, myx, moths, mosquitos creepers, crabs, ants, and whatever krikkinwing is...
I would say it depends on the theme. For example, in zombies I am happy having some runes get ZA and others not, because I can focus ZA onto the more mobile zombies who can get the kills. However, some racials do not work as well like this (CnC or Skeezick Alliance are examples, as they need multiple copies to really come into effect).
Yep I have to agree with this. Why the hell did the Demonbarb need to lose access to it when the unit clearly fits the theme? Than again other themes have plenty more units that got shafted and cant get the "theme" skill at all so spiders are actually pretty lucky to not have had this happen to more of them. Yeah its not just spiders that are considered arthropods though considering the skill is called "creep and crawl" id say it makes the most sense on spiders. Id have to look up an actual definition to tell you exactly what defines an arthropod but from what I can tell they are usually some sort of insect/animal with many legs.
Arthropods are defined by having a 3 part segmented body, many legs, and a tough exoskeleton. Noted members are Shellfish, Spiders and insects.
You are mixing up race with theme agian and expecting racials to = theme instead of simply being a design element of the race. A spider, as you say could easily fit in the life siphon theme ( which needs a look over imo), or be a servant of a goblin or whatever. Race should only dictate stat ratios and which way a champion leans. Class like wise should be what pushes abilities ( outside of race specific ones) and finish up the design shift so that a Human paladin is fundamentally different then a dwarf paladin, or a spider vampire type rune is different then a demon vampire. likewise due to similar designs at a core lvl of course same race champions would function well together do to commonality ( not saying same design). A group of spiders should have synergy, but the synergy should be based on how the race ( with its classes) plays instead of them all having some racial or some silly deal like that.
Um, no. Themes, as stated by DOG will not revolve around a racial but rather some units will have some abilities that work with race. racials are just a lazy, easily identifiable tag to force synergy. CTE is a theme that includes most races in IS, and at least 3 classes. Phalanx was/is an old IS theme that included every type of run in terms of class/race. The only " themes" that require races are the older more simplistic ones. You have ot remember that each race, and class for that matter, is part of the overlal faction and needs a reason to exist with in that faction as a whole. as boozha points out, even damage type can be a driving factor for theme, and those themes usually revolve around more then just the champs with X damage type still.
A particularly terrible example of this is resilient skeezick where it's first upgrade path has you choose between skeezick alliance and loyalty. Not only does loyalty give it more stats and is always on in full faction, but it also costs 2 LESS NORA. 1 of two things need to happen to make racial themes work 1. make all racials base or give a huge discount to all racials that are in an upgrade path 2. simply make it so that racials like skeezick alliance count races instead of abilities. It looks like that has already happened for arthropods, hope they give it to skeezick alliance too. Really, themes need to be incentivized heavily or the game will always be meta goodstuffs. Sok claimed earlier that all abilities need a nora cost, but there are more costs than nora. Counting racials already cost ability spots and are unreliable, there is no reason to give them backbreaking nora costs increase the unreliability of them.
