Just going to @yobanchi for this one. Up to him if this flies ^^ The latest patch is fine for us. Sure, it didn't work out as we all hoped, but creeps actually had changes, so, woo What I want to do here is try to get people to give a list of 5 things they want buffed and 5 things they want nerfed. This will hopefully highlight common "problem" runes as seen by the players. I say 5 of each because they gives us a realistic goal for patch notes. 10 rune changes. If most of these can be tweaks then even better. I'll start off as an example. If yobanchi is up for it he can check the lists for runes that come up often and discuss possible changes for them in another post. Otherwise, we can just personally discuss it. (fyi, not pressuring for this to be done. I am perfectly aware that the council may already be doing other things. This is just a sounding board for what people are looking at) Buffs Ghoul - Currently a mediocre tank with no theme. (since disease is apparently not on the map) Fallen Hero - Hunter abilities. Bleeeh. Serkan's Touch - Needs a pretty hefty cost reduction and a reason to use it as a "long term" defense rather than just killing the unit. Weaken - Could quite easily use newer ways of weakening and a cost reduction (Easy Target, Defenseless, Shrunken) Wraith's Tear - It wasn't considered a viable option on the Inkblight Witch when she had Oblivion Shield and Vaporize and was always stood on DMZ. It certainly isn't viable on anyone now. Nerfs (edited due to comments) None - FW isn't OP right now so nothing could possibly need changing. Anyone who says otherwise obviously hates FW.
Nerfs Darkmarsh Blackstaff - As mentioned, the immunity in a faction with ghost is too much. this Eq has been out since the Heritage expansion, originally for Timmy, in the changes to the staff the basic premise stood - Immunity to Magic just because we have 2 ghosts and a spell, which we always had, should be no reason to change it. Mobilization - +5 nora and it's still auto? Shocker. Could do with a real change to make it a strategic option. In its current form how is it not a strategic option? Haunting Grip - Could at least use Aggregate so you don't want to spam them. Aggregate wont work - only 1 at a time is deployed - to beat Aggregate wait till 1 dies/ low hp then deploy the other BroWatch had a idea of Ethereal Unholy Tomb - Thinking more of a rework than nerf. It it more interactive, give it counters. destroy it, backlash, nora hex - countered
Mostly interested in your own buff and nerf suggestions rather than comments defending runes from your own faction. Added comments to the quote above.
I dont have a complete list since I dont play FW very much. Buffs: Make the range of dark messenger to become more in line with all other ranged units since the revamp. He still has 2-5, and I think if this would be changed to 3-5 or 4-5, then he would become some cheaper and a good option for cheap detection in meta or spirit theme. Nerfs: Haunting Grip spell. Well this is not much of a surprise, I think we all know that in the current state of the game, this spell is to much. Just a matter of time until it gets nerfed, Im thinking/hoping owls will have a look at all spells with some patch sometime. Since there are a lot of spells that are bit over or underpowered atm and haunting grip just stands out.
Nerfs 1 ~5 Nothing - in the current state of FW we are not truly completive, at least in full faction, any other reductions to our champs, Equipment, Spells or Relics will cause us to fall further behind the others. This revamp has changed the face of FW to a low damage, low AP, low HP, High Cost faction where we are scrambling to put together a build where we wont have our ass handed to us. When we use some of the items presented to us from previous expansions the Pox community calls foul, nerf, OP and we as FW players have bought into it. We are loosing our identity and helping the other factions enforce theirs. Buffs to come later
I do not support nerfing our faction any further. If you still wish to speak about buffs then we can talk, but all you will get from me in terms of nerfing our faction once again- is stiff resistance from me. Haunting spirits can get less hp. The fact that most FF FW players now run a single mobi instead of two is good enough. And if unholy tomb is tampered with, as it is one of the main pillars of nora gen for this faction, you are looking at legitimately potentially killing this entire faction. You should be buffing unholy tomb not nerfing it. It's slow to produce profit in nora as it is and is only really over the top in 2v2, which we do not balance this game around. We balance around 1v1. Economy is important and without it we have nothing but a faction full over overtly slow, squishy, low damage champs working around the clock to try and win you a game, and failing hard. You don't see IS looking to nerf deep miners and nora mines. Or UD nerfing scorched dwarf. And oh- did you know trees are still making themselves fat and rich in nora every game with flame siphon? Yeah, nerfing UT is so uncalled for it's even funny. And you will then see more and more FW players selling their collections and submitting to permanent defeat. The fact that you called Nite2Kill's response "defending runes from your own faction" tells me all I need to know, including the fact that even attempting to supply you with reason here will lead nowhere. Rendering this entire conversation pointless from the start. You can't come here calling nerfs and not expect resistance to it. Asking for suggestions of nerfs is just the same. You will get none. Listen to fellow players of this faction and take their words seriously if you want to make efficient use of your time. Otherwise it will translate to you as zealotry, when all we're doing is telling you what's really up. We are even trying to explain to you WHY we don't support the nerfs suggestions in general, or at least most of the ones you proposed here. At some point we have to collectively stop spreading our legs and getting ****ed by the other factions and players who preach about balance and then treat our faction like a cheap *****, of whom they don't know a decimal of a fraction about. Our most recent patch gave us worm synergy with other factions, while our options with them as a FF theme remain underwhelming and pathetic. And this isn't the first time since the revamp that DoG has done this with our faction, leaving the FF problems with this faction, whether OP or ridiculously UP (which is the later most of the time), swept under the rug. To the point where the few OP things we do have is all we have to compete with. Of course I'm going to be completely against losing some of those few things. The options being given are far too small, in return for what you are proposing we lose. And you can reply to all of this and I won't call it "defending your desire to make your decisions final".
That sounds good but how will you make the spell Haunting Spirit unequiptable without effecting/affecting the Haunting Spirit champion?
I'm referring to the Ghost ability. Currently it states: This champion is Incorporeal. I would like it to state: This champion is Incorporeal and Unequippable. That way it is a hit to all Ghosts without impacting Ethereal, Phase Shift, etc. Not necessarily a fix for Haunting Spirit the spell, but to help lessen the complaint about Ghost. It isn't a huge change, but would at least prevent Darkmarsh Staff abuse, and possible other equipment abuse if there is any.
So there will be 2 types one for ghosts Incorporeal and Unequippable and just Incorporeal for Phase Shift, Ethereal because once there ability is activated they become Incorporeal.
There will only be one type of Incorporeal. Ghost will grant one effect, Incorporeal, and one Ability, Unequippable. Since none of the other abilities refer to Ghost, there will be no impact to them. Ghost will be "This champion is Incorporeal and Unequippable." Phase shift will still be "This unit becomes Incorporeal for 2 turns." Ethereal will still be "This champion begins play Incorporeal for 2 turns and becomes Incorporeal for 2 turns at the start of each of your other turns." Vaporize will still be "When this champion is successfully attacked it becomes Incorporeal for the remainder of the turn."
Got it - thanks for breaking it down for me - I guess the leveled Haunting Spirit can have equiptable as an upgrade as the spell is a level 1 Haunting Spirit
My main faction is FW. Yes, replying to my suggestions with outright hostility against any Nerfs at all in a thread created for making suggestions for both buffs and Nerfs will cause me to reply in kind. I also take it you just passed over the part where I gave him additional reasoning for each suggestion. And probably the part where 3 of the 5 "Nerfs" are more accurately requests for reworks on bland mechanics. You are free to suggest "no Nerfs". But I won't just sit back and not justify the suggestions I gave. And it's the phrasing and obvious fervour that makes people come off as zealots, not being against Nerfs.
I truly believe that people are suddenly in an uproar about ghost because of Ancestral Avenger. I've never been the player to suggest nerfing an ability because a champ becomes an outlier. I dont think darkmarsh + ghost is any different from protection + AA or all the other nifty tricks KF can do to keep that thing alive. All of which pale in comparison to FWs ghosts.
Skeletal Lerper is fine -- Skeletons are really vulnerable to being rushed and take a long time to get rolling in this meta, and out of all the summon based themes theirs are the easiest to blow away with AoE due to their fragility. Skeleton Lerper is their ace in the hole if they're able to hold out long enough to boost it up. I barely see anyone running pure skeletons and I don't think nerfing them is warranted just because you hate Surge 2 for whatever reason. I run other champs and see other champs in other factions that can start rocking 20-30 damage much faster than Lerper can get there. Mobilization also not the biggest deal in the world considering the state of FW compared to some of the other factions. Unholy Tomb does need to be reworked. Everyone hates Ghost.
I love that everyone is defending the nerfs and not even suggesting any buffs or nerfs of their own. Christ, I really should have just suggested posting buffs so everyone wouldn't go into defense mode and would actually post something relevant/mildly useful. But I guess I asked for it. Come on, just keep posting the same things over and over. I get it, Tomb is fine because everyone runs Backlash. Got it. I can't believe I forgot about the backlash meta. Edited my first post to better reflect the current FW situation.
Stop being so defensive, gosh. I made a case against nerfing Lerper which I think is pretty sound. Agreed that Unholy Tomb needs to change.
Ok. I approve of all the buff suggestions with more to add: General Korsien - needs heavy charger, even if he has to keep easy target (would be a shame), and then his cost can be adjusted accordingly. He's overcosted as it stands. Bonewing - never should have been made a melee unit. Would be better off with 2-4 rng or even 2-3. Lich King - the literal definition of glass cannon, at too high of a cost. Can lose immortality if it helps but that was always one of his core traits. Mysian Lamia - Needs to be completely reworked with the exception of shrinking scion. Collection of Souls - Would be a staple FW champ with surprise healing in a faction that has the least of it, but alas, it costs like a battleship cruiser but what you pay for is like a small dingy in the ocean. Cost adjustment. Just to help move things along. And Unholy Tomb isn't efficient enough, and needs buffing suggestions, which I do hope to hear in this thread.
I'm not the one being defensive. It's the 3-4 posts against the nerfs I made as a suggestion/example in my first post. The fact that simply posting a list of possible nerfs completely derailed the purpose of the thread is annoying me is all.
Discussing nerfs/buffs should probably be a bit more nuanced than just posting lists. Instead of editing your post and reacting poorly, you could have engaged the people who disagreed.
