Making this a thread so it doesn't get swept under the rug, I don't want to see our faction bonus change to something shitty while we boost creeps and witches (seriously someone is smoking crack and it's not me). So I'm gonna say it again. Simply having additional reveals as your entire factions bonus is the worst possible faction bonus in poxnora when it comes to long term games, which is what our faction is supposed to be all about. In the late game scenario, when everything's revealed and things are dying and you're playing the attrition game- you will NOT gain any benefit from that as a faction bonus! Pick something better! Think Attrition! Nora! Benefit! Pain and Death! Not unfortunately anti-climactic clairvoyance at the beginning of a game.
There is benefit to having additional reveals at the beginning of the game. It allows you to run less champs in your BG. My thought is to have the bonus such that you can run 11 champs in your BG instead of 16, giving you 5 more slots to use for other stuff. From what I know, people run 16 champs to avoid having an opening hand with no champs, so the math below is based on that. Based on what I looked at, a faction bonus of 3 additional rune reveals would allow FW players to run 11 champs and 19 other runes instead of 16 champs and 14 other runes. That would allow for a lot more flexibility in FW BGs while working nicely with the reduced cooldown. First we look at player 1. The probability of drawing 0 champs in a BG with 16 champs is approximately 1.4% 1-[C(14,5)/C(30,5)] C(14,5) = 2002 C(30,5) = 142506 To figure out the probability of drawing 0 champs in a BG with 11 champs and X rune reveals, we have to calculate multiple initial reveal sizes. With 7 reveals the chance of drawing 0 champs is approximately 2.5% 1-[C(19,7)/C(30,7)] C(19,7) = 50388 C(30,7) = 2035800 With 8 reveals the chance of drawing 0 champs is approximately 1.2% 1-[C(19,8)/C(30,8)] C(19,8) = 75582 C(30,8) = 5852925 Now we look at player 2 with the additional rune reveal. The probability of drawing 0 champs in a BG with 16 champs is approximately 0.5% 1-[C(14,6)/C(30,6)] C(14,6) = 3003 C(30,6) = 593775 With 7(8) reveals the chance of drawing 0 champs is approximately 2.5% 1-[C(19,8)/C(30,8)] C(19,8) = 75582 C(30,8) = 5852925 With 8(9) reveals the chance of drawing 0 champs is approximately 0.6% 1-[C(19,9)/C(30,9)] C(19,9) = 92378 C(30,9) = 14307150
First thing: FW is not everything attrition and late game, but, you are ignoring the synergy that the extra reveals bring to CD reduced champions (NINJA'd) and that is running less champions and more spells, as you get them agains if they die, you gain a lot of versatility. So: extra reveals benefits: In general: extra reveals is plain useful Undeads: combined with cd reduction you can run less champions. Witches and creeps: as newer themes, they are bond to rely on some determined cornerstones (think of witching hour) so increased chances of gettin your crutch early is good, and makes that need of a crutch less random and more consistent
is there any concern that extra reveals will make FW attractive to split with for rush decks (which tend to draw nerfs to the runes used)? or just more space for more annoyance. 2x dom now instead of 1x. how long will that go unchecked? a lot of our counters are sitting in the 1x spot right now and instead of more space allowing for more counters, I wonder if it might just lead to doubling up on the more iffy ones.
If you are rushing, you are splitting with SP, if you split also with FW, you are forced into a single split SP/FW, easy enough to balance without big repercussions.
Rune reveals were more of a balance out the late game. There was quite a large thread on what the best FW bonus change would be and we got close to having a change enacted until everything fell through yet again. In either case there could be arguments made for what the main bonus should be but that's the difficult part of discussing bonuses as we have nothing to compare it to. Do we compare it to the current bonuses in other factions? What if those are getting changed/downgraded as well? What if we just get to address only ours? Theres a lot of moving parts here but I definitely think boon of the Undead is a much much better candidate to get the %60 cool down and immunity disease or disease eater. With the loss of 3 items I'd expect the ability to get discounted. As for ideas on other bonuses that have been mentioned before: 1) On death Nora generation (currently steps on SP toes, backloaded) Could possibly be done 1 nora per champion on cool down. 2) Canceling out all Faction bonuses (actually this would be pretty cool) 3) ...
I like the nullification of your opponent's bonus as a bonus. Easy to do in a split too. They only get a half faction bonus that matches their shrine.
Nullifying faction bonuses would be cool but it wouldn't do anything vs mirror matches just like the old one does nothing with match pacing in FW vs FW and FW splits would punish full factions by bringing them down to their level but having 2 factions to pull from.
I was always a fan of the nullification bonus myself. As has been stated before, extra reveals might provide some front loaded bonus for drawing units early, but just as many times, what are the odds you draw the worst unit possible to drop? It already happens now with 16 champ loaded bgs that the only thing you can drop is some petty support unit you really weren't going to need until mid-late game. And it would be great if it was inherit scry if they ever incorporate some kind of reshuffle mechanic to the game (which I'm not even sure Pox needs, not like people run Darkness or Setback). Nora gen from deaths would be fine if they take an approach where instead of bonuses being unique to factions, they did some kind of counterpart build for faction bonuses. As it is now, they're all trying to be different things. But what if FS's bonus stayed a flat nora gain, and FW's bonus became 'Your opponent gains X less nora each round'. (Eh?) IS's became 'Units from your faction take X less damage' and Sl's became 'Your opponent's units take X additional damage from sources' And so forth. But it is very important that when it finally comes time to adjust the disparities between bonuses (Faction/Font and 'global' racials), we figure out exactly where they're heading with it. Or if they even intend to keep them. (Which in all honesty, looking back at when there was no such thing as factions, I wish they stood their ground and kept it like it was).
I hate the idea of additional rune reveals honestly. FW needs something that gives some sort of benefit from death. You could incorporate rune reveals in there if it must happen, but 20% refund when a friendly champion dies + 2 rune reveals each turn would be good I guess. The only problem with the rune reveals is that eventually, our faction bonus will be useless, while everyone else's is good for the entire game. Seems a little unfair, doesn't it?
I'm thinking that if the bonus is changed it will be streamlined so the possibility of simply stacking multiple bonuses is much less likely. In other words the current bonus but adding something else like reveals or on death nora. The problem I see with the bonus to nora on death is that FW then joins the ranks of SP/FS nora tied bonuses which are known to be problematic and at the top of the heap. (ranking goes KF > FS > SP) It's interaction with Rider champs could be potentially very problematic when combined death harvester. This also makes way for uber efficient use of soul collection, dead eater, and soul sift interactions. I'm not sure if the backloaded drawback of the bonus will be enough to counteract the synergy created. It would probably need to be 10% FF and 5% split. I do like the canceling the other bonus.
Thanks, the idea of more reveals in the beggining of the turn dont seem much undead to me, more like KF/ST thing. Because i guess you are talking to cancel the rune reveals thing.
Just to point that at one point that developer suggested to change the FW bonus to cancel the opposite bonus on a sticky thread on the general forums. Its idea was universally panned by the large majority of the players, and the combination of reasonable arguments and sheer knee jerk reactions were strong enough to dissolve the entire idea and let it rot. Actually, I think not even the FW players could support it because there was some kind of stigmatization. Personally, I would not like to open that can of worms again. Think about it: the general hate was so strong that even that developer scrapped it altogether. The same guy who got similar criticism for proposing ideas like flickering (20% at the beginning of your turn this champion would loose its basic attack for the entire turn, now extinct), channel speed without a cap, and yet another split expansion, heroes dawn, and still went ahead and implemented all of those and had to deal with the general hate from the community. If that doesn't give you an indication on the epic levels of sheet storm we're talking about, then good luck. I don't think is an entirely bad idea, I just think it would not be well received.
Just some ideas.Maybe you get some inspiration hopefully . What about increasing the cooldown of all enemy runes by X? Replacing Unholy Tomb's damage and incorporating it into the bonus.That would also mean reworking Unholy Tomb(or not).Dealing dmg and generating nora. Whenever a champion is destroyed,you gain 10% of it's nora cost and your opponent loses the same amount.Maybe too much.This would punish your opponent for killing your champions. This is what I came up with.Imo I think boon of the undead should gain the cd reduction and our faction bonus should be something that generates nora so that you are able to take advantage of the cd reduction.
We all appear to be in agreement about making boon of the undead the means of -%60 cd. Now for the faction bonus, a few worthwhile candidates were: - X amount of nora upon death of champ - X amount of nora per turn multiplied by number of champs on cooldown - Opponents cooldowns are increased (should include spells) - The Unholy Tomb effect, per turn, working like FS bonus where it can't be hurt by backlash or corrupted nora. If this were chosen, I'd suggest making it work so that when it effects friendly champs like humans, it should still gain nora. And when used in tandem with the actual UT, can produce an effective amount of nora without taking an extraordinary amount of time. Out of all of these, I find the most logical choice to be the opponents cooldown is increased. I believe that would be extremely appropriate for this faction. And it SHOULD effect enemy spells, too. So that way, with our lower cooldown undead, when we fight the attrition battle, we can actually out champ them over time due to the increased cooldown. And when they bust out all of their spells, if they don't get the win on us and we stick it out, their spells will take a longer time to come off of cd so that they can't spam it again for a good while. It's perfect and it's genius. It would work perfectly with all of our themes, it would even give witches and humans an advantage, considering things like the Witches Hourglass, and extended enemy cooldowns will still help them. I... I think that is thread-worthy in it of itself. FW making enemy champs and spells cds longer while undead with the boon have low cooldowns. Makes my toes curl with delight. It totally makes up for the fact that our anti-spell relic is merely an overpriced deep magic zone relic, and hardly negates enemy spells at all. While other anti-spell relics actually make you not want to cast a spell.
I dislike the idea of increasing cooldowns of the enemy as it has no obvious impact to the person playing FW. You want your bonus to be something you notice happening. For cancelling the bonus what happens in a FW split vs another split? Guessing it would just remove whichever bonus didn't belong to the shrine? Also the downside of this is some factions rely much more heavily on their bonus than others. Another idea to add to the mix: Grave Robbing - Deploying a champion from your runedock reduces the cost of your next spell, relic or equipment by 4/8. Stacks 2 times (split/full).
How about getting the cooldown of FW runes reduced by some set number for every enemy killed. The faction is after all about necromancy and as enemies are destroyed they are used to supply the material needed to bolster the Elsarin legions.
Backlash or not (**** those other guys), the simplest and most elegant bonus would be nullification of opposing bonus (and in splits, the 'lesser' bonus, or one not related to shrine).
Faction bonus: 60% reduced cool down Attrition: the action or process of gradually reducing the strength or effectiveness of someone or something through sustained attack or pressure. Faction bonus: Conditions on enemy characters have their duration doubled (increased by 50% in split.) Conditions that deal damage deal 50% less damage (33% less in split because of the reduced duration) So hex 3 would hex an opponent for 6 rounds. Rend 3 would last 10 rounds but still only deal 25 damage. In split hex 3 would last 4 rounds and rend 3 would last 7 rounds and deal 19 damage (as opposed to the normal 15) Not a massive boost in either respect but still a game changer for our attrition play style.
While clever, I'm just going to point at the fact that at least half the factions have relatively copious amounts of cleanse (Biggest deterrent to fear, possess, disease, and one of witches' biggest issues). Let alone immunity to the ones we'd really like to stick. Don't get me wrong. 10 turns of possess would be pretty boss....if it would ever stick.
