(OLD) Next Patch Feedback Suggestions

Bro whats "bias", i think lesser zombies should have crushing charge, like afflicted and festering corpse, but not units like moragen and coragh.

 

@yobanchi

I think what I am most interested in seeing is a summary of how you envision these champions being played after the suggested changes.

Some seem to have obvious roles, but I'll just point out some confusion:

1) Sarinda
- First upgrade seems fine. Although I will say it again, until Coven gives something to the unit that takes it, it is a pretty worthless as an upgrade no matter what.
- Death Strike and Pain Curse make sense as upgrades.
- Revel in Misery on the other hand is sandbagging her. I say this because she has two damage shields on base that serve no other purpose than triggering revel. If she has Pain Curse, you are unlikely to ever get her near enough to be taking any form of melee damage and that's 12 sandbaggy nora, the same as Serkan used to have.

My issue here is she has no ranged protection and isn't tanky. Even with Revel she won't be triggering the damage shield because she'll be nuked down in one turn from range.

2) Forsaken Follower
Seems fine. And since she is one of my favourite runes, I would have been really critical if I didn't like the look of it.

3) Dark Knight
Can't see a big issue here. No idea why he's a witch though.

4) Dark Seductress
I dislike anything that doesn't make Veiled Flight more useful and instead removes it. Waste of an ability. Thumbs down, literally hate this one.

5) Dark Enchantress
She still has very low damage. So Lifedrinker is pretty bad on her. Witches are very focused on DMZ. She would be a good candidate for Bloodbind.

6) Wretched Witch
She has one active ability and 0 damage. She has Revere on base acting as a big sandbag unless Mairdreth is actually in play and seriously discouraging her deployment in any other type of BG.
Does Poison Cloud actually count as hers once it is on the floor for Black Death?

8) Black Ops
Not sure we should have a spot reveal. I dislike any mechanic that makes visual strategy less useful. You look what is on the board, plan and then, bam, all the enemy units have detection...
Maybe make it a single target permanent buff like Burning Crusade.
"Target non-undead unit gains Forsaken Exploit and Energy Thief."

 

Coven is really odd now that it doesn't matter if you only have one unit with the ability in play.

 

Mmm, it should have a bonus for have 3 or more coven witches out to those with coven.

You know, the traditional Coven size is 3 after all.

Maybe
"While there are at least 3 champions with Coven in play, this unit gains Forsaken Exploit."

That way you don't need every witch to have coven, but you want enough to trigger exploit and reliable reveal a coven witch early on. It would also make it a worthwhile upgrade.

 

Buff Executioner, it used to be the most feared melee champ in all of FW.

 

Tell that to Juya and other OP beasties.

 

I'll be heading to a state fair tonight so this revision may come out much later tonight then planned.

@Fikule I'll see what I can do ^_^.

 

But but what bias mean??

 

The great Minnesota sweat together?

 

Holy crap yobanchi, we missed each other by a matter of days if you went to the MN fair

 

I think a big problem we're having with this whole argument is we're losing from sight one of the more critical aspects on game design: pragmatism. Practicality. We can come with the most original and eccentric abilities just the sake of being a special snowflake, but ultimately the developers may neither have the resources necessary to code an entirely new ability, or the need for an ability that on itself may serve no purpose beyond clogging the ability glossary.

As for the first situation, it have been proposed on the past to change black ops into a spell that reveal hidden conditions, like block on the champions, or blind snow. Sokolov, iirc, eventually said that couldn't be possible to be implemented for something related to the hidden tag, something that goes similar to "if is hidden, then it can't be un-hidden because it would lose the condition that is causing it to be affected by the spell that is revealing it, so it would stop being revealed and would hide again". Yeah, I know, he could explain it better, my english is kind of bad.

As for the second situation, we already had two ability consolidation, first getting ride of stuff like carnivorous (life siphon that only works if the target champion is race: beast), which happened when Sokolov took control, iirc; and then we had another similar event with this second big revamp, which basically was removing some of the less successful Sokolov's ideas, like ichor or most of the rover abilities, and some of AlphaPsa's ones, like the barbarian clan thing.

A new ability doesn't mean is a good ability, neither necessary, and more importantly, if a bad ability requires to be basically revamped in order to do what other abilities already do, then, heck, save resources and slap the already existing ability and get ride of the crappy one.

Right now, we have two important arguments here about two different abilities, and I think the basic rule above can be easily applied to either: curse and veiled flight.

At one hand, curse is a spectacular train wreck. The -1spd debuff is the most relevant aspect, but along with the -1dmg, is only notorious on the opponent's turn, and without the chance to be stacked, the -spd debuff only results into losing 1ap. Compared with stuff like mischief, shrink or stall, curse is lame and have been powercreeped to a point its existence is completely pointless. Adding the cursed treasure clause did nothing to improve its utility, and analysing it shows is a complete insult to the player's intelligence. Because the change basically asks the player to spend 1ap extra to deal normal damage to a target IF said target is already cursed. The only redeeming feature is the chance to attack at range 4 (if the champion doesn't have already range 4), but here it comes magical attack which does exactly the same (an attack based on champion's damage at range 4), but isn't only cheaper nora wise, but also more flexible because not all the champion with curse have magic damage at base. Can someone, anyone tell me why do we need curse on the game? And trust me, I came to play FW and leave UD behind because I was in love with the curse theme, so it saddens me to admit the futility of said ability, but true be said, we don't need curse on the game anymore. @yobanchi I ask you to rally for the complete removal of curse from the game, or if is too much to ask, dang it, at least try to made the developers realise how terrible this ability is and place something, anything on the same path upgrade so we're not stuck with a waste of upgrade on all the champions that happen to have been cursed with said ability. I'm not asking this as a buff to a particular champion, but as a widespread change to all the champion sandbagged by this horrible waste of code lines. From the inkblight to the carrionling, please, do something so curse isn't a burden dragging them down.

At the other hand, I'm still expecting to see a reasonable argument in favour of veiled flight. There are petitions to keep it into the game, and to revamp the seductress to be all about veiled flight. But I'm still waiting to see anyone explaining what exactly veiled flight accomplishes that flight couldn't (remember, veiled flight is 5n, regular flight is 6n), and what abilities would interact with flight while preserving the seductress flavour. "B, but muh super-duper creative new a..." Ah, shut up. We are about to see PoxNora launched into steam (again! \(^^)/), the developers still have to see a load of bug fixes and graphic improvement, I think the developers should have priorities and coding a new ability only to revamp an old ability that have never proven to be useful enough to be implemented into another champion is among the things they should put at the very bottom, below bug fixing, balancing, improving the NUX and preparing new expansions.

 

I do not under stand, when it comes to flight abilities we need to be consistent, but when it comes to herder we do not, that is not consistent? Beast and zombies are pretty close in competitiveness and power level why would it not be consistent?

 

TLDR.

 

@Shimaru That last paragraph....Quirkiness is something that doesn't just make things 'icky, eww, creative,' it also makes things less stale. Yes, veiled flight is a worse version of flight (and could likely drop to 2 or 3n for the conditional nature), but I've never said it wasn't. It's a flavor thing.

One of the big cliche arguments that always pop up is one I'll use now. If all we care about is streamlining champs. Let's just get rid of abilities all together, and play Pox themed Chess Online, and change all the maps to 8x8 grids and just use the map graphics as backgrounds. Wait, no, that's flavorful, just delete those files and put everything on a black background. While we're at it, nix the music.

Maybe I'm being more facetious than I should be, but given the tone of your post, I feel it apt.

@yobanchi Regarding the Wretched Witch; Why are we so hung up on getting black death on her, and does it even apply to non-basic attacks? And Amp: Disease, just nix it, I know we won't get any of the other ideas in the Disease Thread implemented any time soon, but I just don't think we need Amp. We need things that make disease work, not work harder. And Revere on Mairdreth.....maybe it crams her into her happy little niche, but I see no reason why it can't just stay in the upgrade path.

 

Every time people reply to a post with this I automatically translate it to:
My attention span is to short to participate in a meaningful discussion on the internet, please ignore my input in the future.

 

1) Sarinda-
Path 1 (Elsari Coven, Relocate: Foe, Ritual of Destruction)
Path 2 (Death Strike, Pain Curse, Revel in Misery)
Base: Hero, Attack Magical, Dark Raven Form, Damage Shield Magical 3, Damage Shield Disease 3
Deck Limit 1

She feels off without dark healing but I guess that raises her price to much. I don't think any witch should have revel in misery because of witching hour. Damage shields also seem like they would be more appropriate for meat. Maybe more battle field controlling abilities like defensive strike, afflict, designate scapegoat, divert.

2) Forsaken Follower-
Path 2 (Summon Skeleton 1, 2, 3)
Path 2 (Curse, Curse 2, Ritual of Power)
Base: Attack Magical, Pawn, Defensless -7, Dark Healing
I miss her healer role but this looks good. If anything it would be nice for ritual of creation to added to the game so she can get a heal again.

3) Dark Knight
Race: Undead Lich
Class: Warrior Witch
Path 1 (Desecrated Zone 3, Resistance Physical 3, Scale Armor)
Path 2 (Black Death, Throw Axe, Rabid 2)
Base: Attack Physical, Boon of the undead, Lich-Born, Vulnerability Magic
I don't think dark knight fits with witches at all. I always saw him as a zombie commander. Him being a lich commander seems fine as well. Witches should have to cut into there theme a little bit bit if they want suitable meat just like zombies have to cut into theirs if they want suitable ranged. Could be a candidate for disease amp in both forms instead of DMZ. That is if he still gets warding in his second form.

4) Dark Seductress-
Path 1 (Domain: DMZ, Forsaken Exploit, Revel in Misery)
Path 2 (Charm 3, Flourish, Abash)
Base: Attack Magical, Shadestrike, Hidden: DMZ, HP 50
I prefer dark seductress to stay as an assassin. Revel should just be swapped with assassinate. Her life long problem had always been a good alt damage type but a poor damage base. Wit the new rituals and foul rite this is slowly becoming a non issue. She used to be a situational pick with veiled flight because she could cross over chasms and hazards without breaking stealth but her damage never performed. She's supposed to go in, nail the target, and then seduce everyone else into thinking it was ok.

5) Dark Enchantress
Path 1 (Relocate: BloodBall, LifeDrinker, Blood: Magic)
Path 2 (Thrash, Intimidating, Voices in their head)
Base: Attack physical, Boon, Bleed
HP 50
I think Dark enchantress is still waiting on the vampire buff. Honestly I can't see what she is offering to witches. The blood mechanic tied pretty tightly together. Every time i see a one off vampire it makes me think how much better it would have been to have a whole bg of them using blood magic etc together.

6) Wretched Witch-
Path 1 (Poison Cloud 3, Damage Shield Disease 3, Choking Stench)
Path 2 (Poison Aura 3, Amp Disease, Black Death)
Baseisease Aura 3, Disease Eater, Poison Eater, Revere Mairdreth, Elsari Coven
Dmg 0

She's an odd one. Reveres have fallen by the way side and Mairdreth is probably less interested in whatever wretched witch is bringing even more so after the revamp. I think she belongs as a beefy support. Shes the annoying old lady that zones your mid range hard while all the other witches laugh at 5+ range

7) Cackling Witch?
Cackling witch seems like she's in a good spot
8) Black Ops 25 nora

Renamed to Forsaken Exploit
All humans gain X ranks of Detection for 5 turns.
All witches gain Forsaken Exploit for 5 turns.

This is a very interesting take on witch detection especially since our detect champions don't amount to much. I wonder if the cost is to low for the duration however. Also most witch BGs may be running with tome of hate. I'm not sure if that global damage counts as a stealth reveal already. Actually tome may ruin at stealth attempt by witches at all.
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My personal opinion is to take Dark knight and Dark enchantress off the list and get the wizards involved. They are going to want to hangout with witches anyway so may as well have them cross the threshold. There's nothing in it for being a wizard but there's quite a lot available for being a witch.

Corrupter, Death Caster, and Dark apprentice are all prime suspects and the only suspects for wizards.

 

No, it's just that it was a wall of text that is unnecessary. Is called refine, condense, make a point. Excess words are unnecessary.

EDIT: Aren't you supposed to be leaving?

 

Aren't you supposed to be leaving?

 

At least I give legit feedback and suggestions while she just nit picks.
BTW do you even play FW? **** kid. Tired of little condescending ****s like you, and yes BansheeX too.

 

I'm tired of. . . oh wait. . .

TL;DR