Increased rune pool is nothing to scoff at and has been a prime factor for many unbalancing issues over the years. Mainly because prot and wrath are designed different and when you give factions a way to shore up their weaknesses bad things can happen. It' something to think about. You pull a full faction down to split level with no added benefit.
But that's not a valid argument than against our faction bonus becoming nullification. Because both parties would effectively be running JUST a half faction bonus. Now, it does however strengthen an argument against the power in having a doubled rune pool to draw from. But, the point I'm getting at is that if both parties are playing with a half faction bonus, it's no different than one with a full faction bonus against two half faction bonuses. It's just the advantage of the split pool that stays the same, meaning it all stays as it is now.
You can't separate rune pool advantage from faction bonus when comparing splits. It's basically saying your reward for playing full faction is to be halved while the other person who borrowed half of your faction loses nothing. For example UD vs FW/UD would be like a perma unspeakable being dropped faction wide on FF UD while FW/UD gets a double pool and +2 damage. A full faction vs split with two faction bonuses is certainly different than what I am describing. Your getting 2 50% faction bonuses vs 1 ful. Not 1 50% faction bonus vs 1 50% faction bonuses. UD/ST 2 damage / 5 health vs 10 health ST is a lot different than saying FW/ST 5 health, vs ST 5 health. The first has stat gap that shows the trade off between the split while the full faction still gains some bonuses. The other brings the full faction to split level with the split suffering no gap. UD/ST would close it gap through increased rune pool. FW/ST would push over it's advantage because of the added rune pool. I am only using UD and ST splits as they are easy numbers to visualize. Harder consequences come up when you think about what happens if FW/FS or FW/SP bring full faction FS/SP to split level but the splits do the full factions nora gen/ job better. FW/X vs a split may be even more oppressive as you get a 50% bonus vs bonuses that may as well be completely at 25% effectiveness.
Your argument is baffling me, to be honest. You have to look at the gains from the split faction bonuses and increased rune pools separately. They're coming from separate areas. You don't get the doubled rune pool from splitting with FW, you get it simply from making the choice to split. And the 25% is misleading at best, and down right fallacious at worst. Getting a virtual 'unspeakable' would be just terrible running a FW split, but it would be fine that SL is pulling it off in splits. And it's no different than if our bonus became to 'steal' the bonus of the faction we were up against (An idea I had completely forgotten about). And the disparities only seem that much worse because they are that much worse, because faction bonuses haven't been on par with each other for the longest time. I don't see either of us budging, though. It's pretty much an impasse when neither side thinks the other is right.
@Mercer Skye @exiledtyrant Actually you guys touched on an interesting point in revealing the real problem. Why where faction bonuses implemented in the first place? Hell why were heroes implemented? It was to combat the inherent bonus of increased rune pools from splits to make playing Full Faction more attractive. The problem with the bonuses of course were that they were designed around 20 rune dock era which is why the FW bonus has become obsolete. When you had only 10 champions your champions where a more precious resource then. If they died you could risk literally running out of champs to deploy since they were all on cool down. Now with the 30 rune dock the champ pool literally increased by 50% to 15 meaning that you pretty much never run out of champs. By the time you literally have no more champs to deploy your early ones have cooled down by then so our bonus pretty much went global and our only become useful on very low cost champions. Meaning our TRUE bonus effect on games is a few turns of cool down reduction on cheap champs so they can be spammed.
All true. One of the worst decisions they ever made was implementing the faction bonuses, at least the way they did. And it just became rote to such a degree that we're now in this mess of it being so much work to re-configure. But your statement about 'resources' and champs being so precious is one of the reasons I posted that thread in General about all faction bonuses becoming about nora. But until Gedden weighs in on that particular idea, I'm going to bite down on nullification as our faction bonus. A close second would be 'stealing' our opponent's bonuses, and anything else likely I'll just tear holes in. Rawr, chomp, brains.
OK prepare those choppers then as I run this side dish by you ^_^. What if... ALL full faction bonuses became +4 rune reveals at the beginning of the game and there where no Split faction bonuses? ... let that settle... So basically you now have two trade offs: 1) Splits offer increased Rune pool access 2) Full Faction offers increased Rune pool access at the start of the game
Well, now this is different than looking at our Faction Bonus in a bubble with all others on the outside. This I'd get behind. But that's because it levels it out across the board all at the same time. (Same major goal I was after in the thread in General ). I don't care about anything other than a level playing field. It's part of the 'hidden agenda' I have behind nullification if bonuses are going to remain the disparate mess they are now. If we wipe them out....well, no matter what we're on an even playing field. But, like I said, if they all became that simple difference, well, we'd all be on even playing fields. Win-win in my book.
Is this what you meant? i disagree, every should have an unique bonus, just because we havent thought of a bnus that we like dosnt mean others dont like the bonuses as well
Just let me toss this: from back then, according to the tree huggers, the split bonus from KF is just as bad as no bonus at all.
Thanks. I feel it would fit our theme by saying... With death, brings power!! I am not a big name in the community so I am sure the idea will be swept away into nothingness. I do appreciate you reading it though
faction bonuses would be fine if this was a full faction game. though with an ever increasing rune pool any bonus would tend to run into problem as it would benefit some themes more than others. that's why ive suggested many times that its time to remove faction bonuses and simpy enable more racial and class abilities (moving the bonuses to the theme level). so everyone who keeps trying to rehabilitate the FW bonus is just forstalling the inevitable. with all the talk about the algorithm and the chaos caused by the revamp is the PERFECT TIME to push for the removal of all faction bonuses. that way you avoid the devs having to admit the lie of bonuses not being part of the algorithm. @yobanchi im requesting that you make a push for this by making a thread in the general forum about the removal of all faction bonuses. I don't want it to be one of your PDC suggestions. I just want you to use your spotlight and good rep to get a decent discussion going somewhere where gedden will see it. for obvious reasons its futile for me to do so.
I could certainly get behind taking away all faction bonuses to simplify balancing and to instead move that power into themes. Several beta and alpha tests I've been in over the years have proven that to make a game competitive certain elements of a game have to be straight forward and boring to promote competitive play and game health as a whole. This allows you to focus more on one key aspect to make it really great and refined. For Mobas's this usually comes down to simplified maps but specialized characters. For 4x you could say simplified units but fully fleshed out factions and map interaction. Now if this game is not designed for competitive play than you need to approach it from a different perspective. There comes a very different rule set when you look at noncompetitive and competitive CCGs.
If we do propose the elimination of all faction bonuses,we will have to have a strong list of arguments cause no other faction IMO is going to support this and we'll have to back it up by ourselves.The only way I think this is gonna be implemented is if the big guys do it and the others just deal with it,just like the revamp.But then...ooooh...Hang onto your pants and brace yourselves.Ragers are coming and there will be blood.
...Or we can try and go for something accomplish-able that won't draw unnecessary attention to ourselves. There is still a good long time before any faction bonus changes occur. Lets convince ourselves before we convince others. And so far I am not convinced yet. Why not re-implement the ichor system but as a faction bonus? Undead/Humans within range of other undead get an ability based on their other race. If it's a zombie, they basically get ichor: tough (or something involving disease). Skellies could be ichor evasive but that's more effective and less creative. Spirits could ichor aura (sonic? could take sonic aura off haunting grip [instead of giving it short lived. short lived would suck major donkey balls and i would facepalm for weeks] ). Liches could ichor something supportive like battlemaster or mindwipe aura. Vampyres and/or witches could ichor desecrated zone. These ideas aren't complete. Or we could go for doubling our death harvesting capabilities through the faction bonus + death bird. I don't understand why that idea hasn't made any stride yet. People don't realize how valuable nora is for a faction such as ours where our champs are statistically weaker than most/all rival factions.
Instead of lobbying for all faction bonuses to go away, why not try to get split bonuses to go away. By their nature splits are more powerful. If that happens would it then be easier to tweak our faction bonus?
