A rework of Voil Progenitor

Discussion in 'Shattered Peaks' started by limone1981, Jun 28, 2015.

  1. limone1981

    limone1981 I need me some PIE!

    In another thread I made a suggestion about our Titan, quite expensive nora wise:
    actually he is 109 (default) with surge Voil and surge Behemot, this means that is cheapest build is good for Cyclops (or 2x beast) and Voil at the same time, if you switch to surge moga got 1 nora increase( there so far better option with surge moga in a moga bg)
    second Upgrade choices are : surge enemy and protect Voil, the 2 of them at 5 nora. So the expensive build (for Voil or for goodstuff) is 113 nora!!

    wow, it's a lot...doubt anyone ever had the chance to deploy him (unless you run first, you got lucky and you draw him at first turn,wait one turn to deploy saving nora and than you can have him)

    My toughs on him and how to rework Voil Progenitor:
    -dropping his dmg to 12: having 2 upgrade of surge means that can reach a good dmg output of 14 or 15 (more in a Voil or Moga bg) so having 14 base dmg is too much.
    -spd to 6: I'm not totally sure here 'cos all the other Titan excluded the GReat PeepSpawn have 7 spd
    -hp to 70 : why that 77???
    -summon bat 3: see below
    - total rework of Give refuge voil:
    remove it!!(minus 10 nora) I understand the concept behind Give refuge Voil (the progenitor is a walking Shattered peak full with caverns where the Voil can chill out and stuff) but 10 nora for a remove from play and 4 hp recovery is a bit too overcosted(considering also that the Voil will came back at the end of your next turn!!! you loose a champ for an entire turn and comes back with 4 hp recovered).
    Put Guarded Voil instead( so removing it from U2) and put in U2 Summon Bat 3

    In this scenario the builds can be different: yes the progenitor will be a bit Voil oriented but can also fit a Clops or Moga or Beast bg without any problem, and maybe will be cheaper (like around 90 nora).


    total nora price: I don't know 'cos I don't know how the formula works.

    any toughts???
     
    Gnomes likes this.
  2. Ifem21

    Ifem21 The King of Potatoes

    For me the problem is his stats along with 2 surge. This is silly is a 14DMG champ. Make all Surges to be in one upgrade line, and the other for utility. Reduce his DMG for 11 or 12, and his hp to 70. Also, reduce the cost of Refuge, or give it a buff to restore 8HP, and change it to upgrade, putting Protect in base. He will still be expensive, but will be playable in Voils.
     
  3. limone1981

    limone1981 I need me some PIE!

    still with a 8 hp restore is a bad ability...it should give the Voil back at the beginning of the next turn
     
  4. RedScarlet

    RedScarlet I need me some PIE!

    Role: Tank, Healer, Phalanx enabler (for Voils)

    I feel the cost for a Titan is okay-ish. Tho I like his role as a tank for voils who can heal himself quickly. Although the weakness is that he's super slow, so your phalanx will be as slow as him since they're moving together like a fortress. I intially thought Protect: Moga would be cool, but it would be a bit OP because u can deploy mogas so quickly compared to voils, and if he's in Moga, he kinda needs Overseer... while U2 cannot be changed because it synergizes with his base ability and flavor of Consume+Empathy. Being a 2x2 helps his Consume+Empathy combo.

    Stats:
    10 (-4)/6 (-1)/1/1/70 (-7)

    Base abilities
    Attack: Physical
    Consume (+3 Nora)
    Empathy (+5 Nora)
    Absorb (+8 Nora)
    Titan (+0 Nora)

    Racial U1:
    Surge: Behemoth 1 (+5 Nora)
    Overseer: Moga 3 (+5 Nora) [BASE]
    Protect: Voil (+10 Nora)

    Racial U2:
    Summon: Bat 3 (+8 Nora)
    Summon: Moga (+8 Nora) [BASE]
    Stone Bomb 3 (+10 Nora)

    At this stage, he'll be around:

    Discounts =
    -4 DMG (-6 Nora)
    -1 SPD (-8 Nora)
    -7 HP (-7 Nora)
    -Refuge Voil (-10 Nora)
    -Resistance: Phy 3 (-10 Nora)
    -Base U1: Surge: Voil (-5 Nora)
    -Base U2: Surge: Behemoth (-5 Nora)
    --------------------------------------
    -41 Nora + 109 Nora = 68 Nora (no base ability, reduced stats, no upgrade abilities)

    Premium =
    +Consume (+3 Nora)
    +Empathy (+5 Nora)
    +Absorb (+8 Nora)
    +Base U1: Overseer: Moga 3 (+5 Nora)
    +Summon Moga (+8 Nora)
    ---------------------------------
    +38 Nora + 59 Nora = 97 Nora (with base abilities and upgraded abilities, reduced stats)

    His new nora cost range: 97- 102 Nora.

    [1] 97 Nora (moga build) w/ Overseer and Summon Moga

    [2] 102 Nora (cyclops build) w/ Surge: Behemoth and Stone Bomb

    [3] 102 Nora (voil build) w/ Protect:Voil and Summon: Bat
     
  5. limone1981

    limone1981 I need me some PIE!

    I like it but I think that somewhere there should be Surge Voil...or not...I like the Empathy idea but maybe doesn't fit the peaks flavor....also being a walking mountain it should have res. physical and not absorb (it will be 2 nora more).

    If @Sokolov is around maybe he can tell us his opinion and if he has something in mind for the Progenitor
     
  6. limone1981

    limone1981 I need me some PIE!

    So I guess no other ideas,no greens opionions...
     
  7. Elric

    Elric I need me some PIE!

    As others have said before, I'd say put all Surges on one ability line, and make the 2nd ability line something useful.

    Also as others have said, Give Refuge: Voil is just useless and should be reworked or removed. Even knocking it down to 2 Nora as it is would make it 2 Nora overcosted.
     
  8. RedScarlet

    RedScarlet I need me some PIE!

    If you wanna have Surge: Voil too, it would be really redundant. Progenitor's just gonna be another 2x2 melee hitter that doesn't do much, because then you'd have to eliminate either "Summon Bat 3" which is essential for his HP maintenance via Consume. OR.... you'd be removing Protect: Voil, which is what he's all about.

    Tbh I don't like Surge abilities on him, he's a 2x2 melee that doesn't really do Multiatk, debuffs, or anything. He just walks up and hits people.

    Give Refuge is useless, thus, my design is to exclude that horrid ability.

    Empathy and absorb is nowhere near cool in terms of flavor, but it sure is a good cost for a good ability on a Titan. Specially Empathy on a Consume champ with unlimited resource. How is Moog Gargantua flavorful with Res:Mag 3 and Res: Phy 3 anyways. Its a plant. It just made him a better champion in terms of playability.

    I feel like having 1 res (phy 3) is redundant because of the widespread atk types and non-basic attack damage running around. Its 10 nora. If opponent stats to deploy non-Phy dmg, you're basically overpaying him by 10 nora. Its best to go with Absorb (basically Res:Range 3 that cuts a doubletap into a single tap) for a continuous HP-healing champ like this guy.
     
  9. Bellagion

    Bellagion I need me some PIE!

    An interesting concept. He might be playable like this. I still wouldn't run him personally, but somebody might.
     
  10. Raikan

    Raikan I need me some PIE!

    I don't think it makes sense for him to be a phalanx enabler. At his price point, there won't be a phalanx on the board because the player has likely foregone at least 1 deploy and is likely at a position/Nora disadvantage as a result.

    That said, maybe a better idea would be to make him passive (along the lines of terra former) and give him some of our avatar's abilities (like the AOE buff or the Lightning one).
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2015
  11. Nebron

    Nebron I need me some PIE!

    Why does he need surges in the first place? The issue here is that no matter what you do to him voil already have an abundance or melee bruisers all of whom would be more efficient to run unless progenitor was just flat out broken. Why not retool him to be a beefy support unit instead of a bruiser?
     
    RedScarlet and Ifem21 like this.
  12. Bellagion

    Bellagion I need me some PIE!

    Yeah, this is kinda why I don't think I'd run him. Even if he could heal or did decent damage, why wouldn't I just deploy a Groundstriker and an Infernal instead? Voil want more small champs out to take advantage of stat stacking anyways. Plus he still wouldn't have race Voil, so Sceian and Voil Guard would be better tanks for less nora.
     
  13. limone1981

    limone1981 I need me some PIE!

    Still a 2x Voil would be nice...colossal champs (not with colossal on upgrade because you can always Confuse or State of confusoin them) are an issue.

    Actually in my Voil bg I have to run Cyclops Shaman (for backlash that was nerfed pretty bad) and Klub/Cyclops Hauler for Colossal boa?frostfall Vanguard encounter, wasting 2 spots in my bg ( before Voil Jester had backlash and was pretty useful with that in a Voil bg) that needs race Voil champs to fuel Bulwark and Surge on Lance,Guard,Windstriker,Queen and Sorcerer
     
  14. badgerale

    badgerale Warchief of Wrath

    Imagining he got collosal on base (which would make him very tanky scaling with phys resist and consume) and he got one surge path and one utility path... what sort of utility would be good?

    I guess we could go down the mobile castle type phalanx route, and maybe give it some range or AoE potential - or simply more buffing utility (not stat boosts).
     
  15. limone1981

    limone1981 I need me some PIE!

    throw boulder will fit as ranged option, or stone bomb (he's a frikking walking mountain so it can fit)
    about buffing utility he can go with Battle Leader or Weaken Spell (rellay useful in a phalanx) or a Defender but he's a beast so he will fit only a beast bg o_O, same thing for Hold the line (that defender will be wasted).
    @RedScarlet idea with Empathy and Consume also sounds good.
     
  16. Raikan

    Raikan I need me some PIE!

    Allow champs to deploy in spaces adjacent to him--consistent with the castle idea, programming is already available through sky beacon, and it helps compensate for the tempo hit a player takes from deploying him.

    I'd probably remove surge and damage from him, and give tankiness and utility. A neat idea would be to give him an offensive version of throw champion that allows him to toss a champion as a fixed damage attack into another champion (like toss moga on chaos brave, but it doesn't summon a unit, just throws an existing unit). It gives some offensive potential; it allows for him to help with phalanx positioning rather than being the center of a phalanx. Maybe the thrown unit should take equal damage too.

    Depending on cool down, maybe he needs another ability. I like the idea of throw Boulder or stone bomb, like liking suggested, but those are based on the damage stat. Maybe rock slide or tectonic pulse would be better. But I think the 0 damage, spell kaiser model is how support champs should be designed in the future: fixed damage abilities rather than making them pay for a damage stat that hardly gets used.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2015
    RedScarlet likes this.
  17. badgerale

    badgerale Warchief of Wrath

    How about something like:?

    Attack physical
    Collosal
    Unstoppable
    Consume
    Give refuge voil ( buffed to heal up to 25hp or maybe even full heal)
    Stone bomb


    Upgrade 1: tremor, rockslide, throw boulder
    Upgrade 2: summon bat, shroud, protect voil

    Stats the same except -5hp.

    Work out about 117
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2015
  18. Elric

    Elric I need me some PIE!

    At that price, I would not run him.
     
  19. badgerale

    badgerale Warchief of Wrath

    I think your right. I edited my idea so that it has two range/AoE attacks so it has more damage potential.

    Protect voil goes to upgrade to avoid overlap with give refuge.


    This is a more of a damage/support build, it could be turned into a more focused support champ if upgrade path 1 was changed to support abilities.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2015
  20. Raikan

    Raikan I need me some PIE!

    What is canopy shield?
     

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