Alfie Evans, right to life or needless suffering?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by SireofSuns, Apr 24, 2018.

  1. SireofSuns

    SireofSuns I need me some PIE!

    So, there's a kid, named Alfie Evans (clearly).
    The doctors at the hospital where he's being held thought he wouldn't live.
    So they refused to let the parents take him to Italy for the possibility of treatment that would help him.
    The UK doctors don't believe that Italy could possibly be able to do anything, despite the hospital in Italy being well known for being excellent.
    The parents have appealed the case multiple times, and still haven't been allowed to bring their baby to Italy for treatment.
    Currently, the baby has been taken off life support, and is not being allowed to have food. In other words, the UK hospital is just waiting for him to die.
    He's not in major pain, and he's unconscious (if I recall correctly).

    Now, someone tell me that this is totally fine, the parents are at fault, it's a lie, or that we should just trust the UK doctors.

    Seriously, how is this okay? (and this keeps happening)
     
  2. PoxBot

    PoxBot Well-Known Member

    Yeah, that's kinda weird. Even in an ass-backwards country like Mexico, the parents can transfer their kids over for treatment. Though I can't remember any baby cases off the top of my head and those could be exception cases through some law.
     
  3. davre

    davre The Benevolent Technofascist

    Kid's going to be a vegetable. Unable to procreate or work in any capacity. If saving lives is so important there are loads of refugee children that also deserve a chance to live except that they would actually make a net contribution to our civilization.
     
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  4. SireofSuns

    SireofSuns I need me some PIE!

    Not necessarily. There's the chance, albeit small, that he could be saved. At minimum, his life could be extended and made happier for what's left of it.

    If it is, maybe the UK shouldn't focus so much on stopping individuals from getting medical treatment outside their own country. They could be spending the court money on helping those refugee children.
    Except that they don't. The refugees which I'm almost certain you're thinking of, aren't children. The children (and women) are left in their home countries by young able bodied men who claim themselves as children on the registry forms.

    So yeah, why bother a couple that wants to take their dying child to another country for treatment? I suspect it has more to do with pride in their healthcare system, because letting them go would actually be financially and medically beneficial to everyone involved.

    Instead, they could focus on sucking at the whole refugee issue!
     
  5. davre

    davre The Benevolent Technofascist

    “Alfie looks like a normal baby, but the unanimous opinion of the doctors who have examined him and the scans of his brain is that almost all of his brain has been destroyed.

    “No one knows why. But that it has happened and is continuing to happen cannot be denied. It means that Alfie cannot breathe, or eat, or drink without sophisticated medical treatment. It also means that there is no hope of his ever getting better.”

    From what I understand, nobody is preventing the family from taking the kid to Italy, but it doesn't make sense to throw public health monies at a child-shaped husk indefinitely. It is also impossible to experience joy when you have no brain.
     
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  6. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Desert Owl Games

    This case has been quite fascinating and really comes down to "What should parents be allowed to do?" Is the answer "anything they want?"

    From the perspective of the parents (and the conservative groups who are using Alfie as a poster child), the government is overstepping its bounds.

    From the perspective of the state, they are preventing the parents from putting the child in further harm and possible experimentation.

    ~

    Now, if we were talking about, say, STEM cell research, abortion, cloning, gays adopting a child, the conservative side would be that the state should step in and stop people from doing those things, because they believe THEY know best for other people.

    However, in THIS case, the position is reversed, and they want the parents to be able to choose what THEY think is best for their family.

    On the other side, the liberal said for abortion, etc, is that the parent/person should decide...

    But in THIS case, they want experts to decide and even override the parents.

    ~

    Personally, as a parent myself, of course I'd want to be able to do anything at all to save my child - even if it had very little chance of succeeding. But at the same time, I also understand that we would want to prevent people from offering up their children to experimentation or other potential ethical issues, so it's a tough problem.

    For example, "electroshock therapy" as it was practiced in the 1930s or "gay conversion therapy" are things that I wouldn't want parents to be able to subject their child to even if they sincerely thought it was best for their child because I sincerely believe it is harming the child.

    So the question really is... where do you draw the line? In this case, the line is being drawn by medical professionals in the UK, while others believe it should be drawn by the parents.

    The strange thing is I don't think most people commenting have even really looked into or asked what the treatment MIGHT be. Is it an actual treatment or an experiment? I suspect that there is SOME treatments that even the "parents choice" people wouldn't think is ok (for example, if the treatment was feeding the kid arsenic and burning him alive), so where is the line for them?
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2018
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  7. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Desert Owl Games

    As an aside, I also think this is related to child marriages, where parents are able to marry off their children even in the US because much of the US does not have a minimum marriage age (of course, this is an issue in many other parts of the world as well).

    In these cases, it is argued that parents and religious leaders know best, and Chris Christie famously veto'd a bill that would have raised the minimum legal age for marriage, citing that it would restrict religious freedoms.

    Girls as young as 12 and 13 have been documented as having been married in the US (even in "recent" years) and usually to much, much older men.

    So in this case, is it "parents know best?" Or should the state step in and say, "hey, that doesn't sound like its in the best interests of the child..."
     
  8. Geressen

    Geressen Forum Royalty

    indeed, how dare the religious keep trying to intercede instead of letting the defenseless doomed kids die with some dignity.
    Italians and Americans should go back into their churches and pray to their god tointervene to heal the babies instead of trying to make them suffer experimentation for their own moral grandstanding.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2018
  9. Geressen

    Geressen Forum Royalty

    [​IMG]
     
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  10. Varthas

    Varthas Devotee of the Blood Owl

    Sadly in the most educated, free and rich contries the medical system is like a ministate in the state where the medical system don`t need to follow the rules and laws you learned about in school. Medical workers know that the procedures for filing a complaint is so long that in the meantime they can basicly set human rights aside and go about how they want if they feel the need to "take the law in theyre own hands" as in this case.

    Ofcourse the medical system is mostly great to humans, but there is this other side where it is very obvious that the same tomatoes you see in everyday life are also represented in the ranks of the medical system.
     
  11. Geressen

    Geressen Forum Royalty

    If you remove enough words from the word sallad you get the right conclusion.
    luckily the courts ruled in favour of the medical workers and the child.
    I do not think calling people in a vegetative state tomatoes is very nice though.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2018
  12. Geressen

    Geressen Forum Royalty

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...e-care-life-support-parents-nhs-a8321226.html
    (left centre bias)
    https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-independent/

    your perspective on that piece please @Varthas & @SireofSuns (just those snippets will do or you can read the entire article, your discretion really)
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2018
  13. Varthas

    Varthas Devotee of the Blood Owl

    But i didn`t say that....

    I was refering to people who perceive theyre own power as bigger than what it really is. And in the medical world you see alot of that, aswell as in the real world. Blown up ego like a juicy tomato but with not much real substance on the inside. In the medical system a doctor who makes the wrong call rarely get`s any personal consecvenses, "he tried to do his job but failed."

    So in a system like that it is a incubator for blown up egoes because they rarely get any personal responsibilites for theyre actions.

    You see it in the police force aswell, although it manifests itself as police violence, where it rarely get consecvenses for the officer who goes alittle to far.
     
  14. Geressen

    Geressen Forum Royalty

    what kind of third world country do you live in where this is true?

    consequences btw.
     
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  15. Varthas

    Varthas Devotee of the Blood Owl

    Norway, i am sure most of the stuff going on here is all well and good and that most people in this "the worlds richest" country have superbly good medical care. But it does not mean that it is true for all cases.

    A example; it was a male here in Norway who suffered a stroke, and called for medical help. The emergency didn`t think it was a stroke but a panic attack so he didn`t get the ambulance and died. The doctor who made the call didn`t face any consequences. Wich kinda makes sense, yet he could have lived if he got belived.

    This is how the system works, if it didn`t work like this then in example the doctors would have much bigger problems to make a desicion, wich in itself is also a problem.
     
  16. Varthas

    Varthas Devotee of the Blood Owl

    Another example it was a male who suffered a diabetic attack and panicked but they thought he was aggressive and called police to the emergency and clamped him down, then he suffered a stroke while clamped to the bed and died.

    None of the officials in this scene wanted to harm the man, but they percevied the situation wrong, and these cases rarely ends up with personal consequenses. And in that sense it creates a "above the law" scenario because any civilian who had done the same would have faced consequences, at least in form of a initial investegation and possible legal system.

    And this is true for both my examples, as a civilian you must help in example to drive the guy who thought he had stroke to the emergency. By law you must help him, if you had refused to help him you would most likely faced consequences.

    A civilian not helping a diabetic but clamps him down wich leads to a stroke would also have lead to totaly different legal system ending than the police/medical workers did.
     
  17. Geressen

    Geressen Forum Royalty

    what kind of emergency service has doctors working in the call centre/in the ambulance? im pretty sure you are misinterprenting something.
     
  18. Geressen

    Geressen Forum Royalty

    as someone with diabetes you are going to have to be more specific, you probably mean he became hyperglycemic and had a seizure as a result. low blood sugar has confusion as a symptom aswell as mood swings so he probably WAS aggressive.

    you need to practice your English a lot.
     
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  19. Varthas

    Varthas Devotee of the Blood Owl

    I think the AMK emergency central is in the hospital and they have a dedicated doctor on duty who makes the call about who get a ambulance.

    Also i think this patient had a history of panic attacks but this time it wasn`t one.
     
  20. Varthas

    Varthas Devotee of the Blood Owl

    Yes you are right here i think he was kinda aggressive, still he had a non violent history and he was refered to as some gentle giant because he was big.

    I am sorry about my english, i wrote that earlier today and during "day time" i have difficult to think and write properly, it get somewhat easier later on when i am calmer.
     
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