Are good relics with HP that is equal to its nora cost balanced?

This is something that can sometimes be overlooked in terms of balance and I feel like this straight up shouldn't be the case. The prime offenders to me are halberd of j'thir and nora mine. Gatling gun is getting there. Over the years relics such as these were nerfed so that their nora wasn't 1:1 with their HP (take banners for example). Halberd and mine are both fantastic relics and I would like to see their HP reduced, or their nora cost increased (HP reduction for mine, nora increase for halberd to balance them out for me). Not sure if there are others, since people don't innovate within their respective factions and I never see new Bane Shift being played, however I feel like relics, unless otherwise useless like some of the original markets (minus SL market maybe?), shouldn't have 1:1 nora to HP ratios.

It would make almost no difference to mine to reduce its HP since its intended use was to generate nora silently in the back of the map and not to contest mid font with 25 hp and generate you nora at the same time. Halberd has been a bit silly for a while now to me imo, given how valuable spot mobility AND also precision is in general and a nora increase could be a step in the right direction.

What do you guys think?

 

Good question, i think its ok because nora mine has no real function then be annoying font contester. And that it has 25hp makes it survive one of those seism units that keeps dropping down.

Halberd is something i see often, nora mine not that often since it is kinda useless besides as font contester. imo 5nora / turn from something that costs 25nora is kinda useless on most maps since they have 5 fonts. its the same nora as hahndor memorial which have so much more use, but has just 20hp.

merchant's quarter, sanctuary of hope, wind generator in IS has also 1:1 ratio

 

I run nora mine in almost every ironfist bg, does it need a nerf most certainly not. No for both, number of things could use a nerf before these two.

 

Nora mine absolutely does have a function other than to be an annoying font contester. It generates nora. The main resource of the game. Seems pretty good to me and seems pretty strange that FS bonus/marsh song is qq level however nora mine is shoebox, seems like a bit of an oversight by the players using IS considering when I came to the game, the FS meta was to not include marsh song AT ALL so yeah I'm not taking your word for it being useless outside of the font contester function.

As displayed in the title you are missing the "good" part of the relics and as I said in the post, yes all faction markets are 1:1 ratio, however all markets are really bad except SL. Sanctuary of hope and wind generator fall in to similar categories such that they are too niche/useless to be a problem.

On another note hahndor memorial has always been quite batshit crazy to me (outside the HP:nora thing), however its fine since the theme overall is kinda bad so them having 1 good rune in the form of a relic seems acceptable. As the expansions continue and the theme gets better it could be in for a nerf however for now I don't think its too oppressive.

@MrBadguy the obvious solution would simply to be adjust the ratios. For me that would entitle reducing the HP of nora mine since its supposed to sit at the back of the map anyways, and increase the nora cost of halberd since it's effect is so insane. Perhaps its just me though and these runes don't need nerfs, however at high level play its rune advantages like these that are seemingly being phased out, as they often can decide skirmishes and sometimes even games.

Its also a discussion for the devs on future creation of relics; if the people don't mind these ratios then they can keep making them, however I for one despise them at high elo. Theres almost NO 'cost' to pooping one of them on the board. The vast majority of utility runes such as these are generally 'nora inefficient' (bar banners), because they give you that amazing spot effect (stun, cleanse, etc.). Relics are in a different spot in that they gain some of that efficiency back with their HP, however generally have weaker effects. The problem for me comes when the innate inefficiency of spot utility is overcome by the nora:HP ratio of the relics, and this is displayed in halberd.

To me mine is simply obnoxious at its 25 HP stat line. I want to see that thing in the back of the map, not in mid. Not only that, bump most relics to 25 hp 25 nora (ones that cost that much anyways) and they would probably be a bit oppressive too.

 

Nora mine > marsh song

 

I genuinely don't understand why no one runes mine (or wasn't until recent). This was my exact question with marsh song when I came back to the game too. No one was running it!? Given how balanced the maps are for me I feel like you can definitely afford to take the tempo loss a lot of the time in order to extract value. If not, you don't use them. You only need to run ~13 champions now in order to effectively 100% of the time get a rune 1st turn so you don't lose, so its not like losing the deck slots are that valuable if you don't play them (which you will).

 

Maybe in your gamestyle?
Nora mine is kinda worthless besides being dropped into fonts, we get easy 69nora in almost all maps now / turn, so dropping those 25nora can be helpful if you got the deck for it, with the costs on your champs balanced around that instead.

if the game was longterm then yes nora mines would be good, but most of my games are over before i would really benefit from the nora mines. imo it takes 10turns for the nora mine to benefit me more then it did cost, so if i deploy it early ill be behind so long into the game its not worth it. i rather deploy any type of dmg or heal then drop a nora mine in the SDZ early. Except for that i can use it to contest a font, and for each turn it survived it reduced its cost for doing that.

Marsh song got double effect since FS have adaptive units in the game, that keeps growing strong so fast.

 

Marsh song existed before Tidemaster was buffed. Its also not what makes those adaptive units as strong as they are and is certainly not why its run.

5 nora a turn is nothing to scoff at. I feel like you're falling in to a noob trap right now saying "5 nora isn't much when I'm getting 69 nora a turn!". You're wrong for the same reason people who are new to the game thing the FS bonus is one of the worst in the game since it doesn't provide stats, and UD is the best since +4 damage is so much and is OP.

Now had you said the tempo cost of using 25 nora in the early stages of the game outweighs the benefits in all other stages of the game, you may have had a case on your hands, however I would have still argued you were wrong.

Perhaps some numbers can convince you:
Marsh Song | Nora Mine
On deploy/T1: (-30)|(-25}
T2: (-20)|(-20)
T3: (-10)|(-15) Even T2 you are only 5 nora behind a marsh song player, this turn for me is where I feel the nora deficit is worst due to various tempo reasons.
T4: (0)|(-10)
T5: (+10)|(-5)
T6: (+20)|(0)
2nd Song/T7: (-10)|(+5) What is this blasphemy?
T8: (0)|(10)
T9: (10)|(15)
T10: (20)|(20)
T11: (30)|(25)
T12: (40)|(35)


ITS A GOOD RUNE DUDE.

From here on Nora Mine is BETTER than marsh song. Ever played a game where the FS player used marsh song, and then it came off CD and used marsh song again and you thought you were super behind? Imagine if he had a nora mine, you would be crushed...

On a side-note
I'm semi-convinced IS is under represented/bad because the players are doing it wrong (similar to previous FS). I'm not seeing nora mines and I'm not seeing any strip armour/charge, two things which I think should change. While the second may not be as good as I think it is, historically IS has struggled with power turns, and this is very true in the present. Dwarfs were good because their stats were simply better than all other runes in the game when combined, not because they provided you with a means and strategy to outplay your opponent (such as ST/SP eles for example). Despite things like harpoon and gale force being batshit crazy, they do require some "skill" on the players behalf to use effectively.

As far as I can see with almost all IS themes (probably not structs), all you can do is walk up to something and hit it, pretty hard to outplay people at the top levels of play with this strategy. Theres very little burst/AP gen/pull that can be used to out maneuverer your opponents bar hammer strike/bane blast burst. Invig/grant potion doesn't count since its easily telegraphed and you can play around it. Strip armour/charge could solve this problem imo and its worth the spot as it in the best of cases gives +4 ap /+3 damage/+25% damage global. A huge amount of the time in theory you can eek out more than 35 damage from it, the rough cost of spot damage:nora ratio so it seems worth to me.

 

Nora mine hp should be reduced. Its not fair that unholy tomb can be globaled, but nora mine cant. They both do basically the same thing, unless there is something I dont understand. 1 hp loss isn't much of a threat otherwise.

As I've made a point to before, globals are a major problem with this game, and shouldnt exist without counter play, such as unholy tomb and nora mine.

 

Didnt want to go into nora mine vs marsh song since its been spammed about earlier, but if you think its a good rune, feel free to use it in FF IS. imo nora mine is not worth using if it sits at your shrine, if it contest a font or hold a sidefont it sure is.
its not Nora ROI that is important really, its nora momentum and playstyle, if you try to stall and want the game to last 30+ turns then yes you must have nora gen or other synergy to give you longterm effect for free.
from my view it takes 10 turns before a nora mine has given me more nora then it did put me back behind my enemy, 5 turns to pay itself, then 5 turns to get that 25nora advantage that my enemy had earlier.

So if i think i can keep everything alive and move as fast as my enemy the first 10 turns i would deploy nora mine in SDZ.

I see 2 games in my last page of the game history where it would have really helped. all other games have to short duration for it to help.

 

with relics its 2hp for 1 nora up to 16hp, then its 1:1

 

Wot.

 

No, irrefutably. @GoldTiger did the numbers. Nora mine > marsh song.

 

I agree that using nora mine offensively is a better option than using it defensively most of the time but thats pretty much how I feel about most plays in pox. If I have the option to stop my opponent getting their font but it means I cannot get my font I would usually take that option. It depends on the individual game but more often than not. I think one of the biggest issues a lot of new/weaker players have is they always play the same way presented with the same options regardless of all the variables.

Edit: People think being down a font/nora is GG which just isnt true in todays game with so many different comeback options. Tiny is particularly at this.

Edit 2: Stuff with instant effects like halberd could have 1 hp it wouldn't really change anything at the higher end of the game.

 

Lol at people saying nora mine isnt amazing

 

If IS isnt running their nora mines can FW have it?

 

If SP can have soul reaver, then sure!

 

Atleast there aint many using units with mason spire, it could probably get a bit nasty with alot of relics, a few mason spire units. aha there are just 2 units with it in the game, could explain why they are rarely used
http://s-qpoxdb.rhcloud.com/ability/3165
now relics with 40-45 hp for 25nora would be annying, the good thing most IS relics are kinda deploy dmg or minor dmg.

 

I know exactly why Nora mine is used offensively rather than defensively. This is the exact point I'm arguing. It's straying from its intended use due to its exorbitant hp:Nora ratio.

What I'm arguing is that it doesn't need all this hp to survive. Reducing its health by 15, while will not be as strong to put in mid, will be an equally effective Nora generator and that's NOT A BAD THING.

Also yes I agree with the fonts thing. If I make an early mistake rather than thinking oh I've lost I think "oh, this game is gonna be 30 minutes longer now"

 

I personally do not use Nora Mine but generally recommend that IS players should. It has amazing mid/late game value and is great for contesting fonts.

My personal choice comes from how tight deck space is. I am generally an aggressive player and Mine has no offensive use other than for possible added knockback damage and I would rather use Earthshaker for that.