Are racial bonuses counted towards "Boost, commander, defender, etc?"

Why do some themes have racial bonuses, while others dont? For example, most worms have necrosis. They also have defender, improve range, and tbh not sure what else. Why do skeletons, for example not have a racial bonus, and only have boost?

Can someone explain to me the whole racial bonus thing?

 

Summons, surge, and altar are good enough identifiers of a racial for me. Besides, skeles was one of the 'OG' racials, so it is very simplistic compared to worms or jellies.

Should every race have the same set of boost/commander/defender/etc + racial to you? This thread seems pointless.

 

Summons themselves aren't a racial, otherwise I'd add corpse pult to Evey skeleton deck.

They have 2 surge units, but is that really all that justifies their non existent racial bonus?

I was hoping you wouldn't say altar of bones. Because although it is technically true, it isn't used as a racial bonus (defensively). You mostly use it aggressively after a bone mine, in order to extend the life of a contested font. + 4 life 1 damage while killing your own units really isn't that great for CD 2, but it does mitigate the cost of contesting a font.

They also have bulwark (X1, on a pretty so-so unit), bone circle, bone spurs (which are bugged and don't give +1 damage), and bone cloak. Those are all the abilities which benefit from the racial for reference.

I didn't say that at all, I'm legitimately trying to understand why skeletons don't have a racial while their competition all seems to. For instance, spiders are very closely related to skeletons, and they have creep and crawl, + others.

 

For that matter, there are other themes which have almost nothing holding them together. For that reason, I've only ever seen competitive aaryyo played as elementals (the resistance relic amoung other things)

 

Undead FW champs used to have an ability called Boon of the Undead and it basically gave you a small nora refund after a champ's death and when they picked up a globe. This was eventually removed for design reasons (I think people believed that it was kinda op and limited champion designs), and a lot of FW champs got a cost reduction (so most FW players were okay with it).

Now, why don't Skelles have a racial bonus? Probably because of the same reason most of your other threads go nowhere: they are fine as they are right now.

I want to let you know that you play skelles quite differently than most other's I've seen. You say that Altar of Bones doesn't count as a racial bonus because you mostly use it to contest, but that's just you. You're also the first one I've seen to play skelles so aggressively that you use Black Pearl to increase your contesting potential. Most players I've seen used Altar to boost their champs before an attack.

Spiders is not your competition, nor are Jellies, they aren't even played at a ranking like yours. Spiders are also not related to skeles because they are neither undead, or in the same faction, they are two different themes. I really wish you'd stop trying to compare apples with oranges.
A theme don't need a racial bonus to be good, and skelles are one of the best themes in FW atm.

You have Bone Circle, that's the closest thing you'll get to a racial.

 

I've tried setup style skellies, I can't justify the risk/reward. I am only ranked 1500 elo at the moment, which is garbage, tbqh. I was ranked higher before the nerfs (and climbing slightly thanks to AOD). That deck is experimental (and has some potential tbh), but it is based around meta, the FW bonus, and racials (bulwark, surge). Bone circle as a racial isn't much different than any unit which has weaken spells, just saying. It is strong arguably, but doesn't stop DoTs or CC spells, it only really stops grimilcs bane and maddening echos (slightly), and even then, it also has huge drawbacks if your opponent doesn't cast spells, so it is very risky if you don't skillfully predict what runes your opponent is thinking about using.

If altar of bones and sitting back is the answer to why skeletons don't have a racial, I can assure you it is not enough. I'll try to keep changing my deck up, but there is a very specific reason why I don't think skeletons are viable.

I already had one of if not the best skeleton decks pre nerf, and I still though they were just a "decent" theme then, with a lot of weaknesses. After the huge nerf, I can't imagine that there was a better way to play them than I was, although I am trying to find it (so far unsuccessfully, as I figured).

 

I still do not fully comprehend why certain themes little to no racial bonuses. So far the best answer I've gotten from this thread has to do with age of the theme. If I look at death guard, for instance, it was clearly designed without a theme in mind altogether.

 

old-style skellies was like the only thing in the game that had boost 3, which used to be immensely strong compared to how it is now. as skeletons got buffed and new themes, cards, and ideas came in to the game, the dev team realized they had to tone them down like mad. this isn't to say that they've been nerfed out, but it is to suggest that their identity has shifted over the history of the game (where many other themes came in later with a clearer purpose)

 

Certain themes don't have a racial bonus because a) some themes are not racial themes (N/A in the case of skeletons) b) a common tag is unnecessary to whatever the theme is meant to do. Skeletons have not had a racial ability slapped on them because, I would assume, it isn't necessary to what Sok or a previous designer has seen as necessary to the thematic development of that body of runes.

 

I've actually tried to understand the current direction of skellies from sok, and all he said was historically they were an aura army. So I truly think they are just lacking one at this point. But this thread did help me understand why, especially dagda's post about boost 3 and a clear purpose, which makes a ton of sense. They definitely lack an identity right now after surge removal of lerper. (which surge I am told, is shifting more towards a spirit themed mechanic. I'd have actually liked to have seen lerper keep surge spirit)

 

Whenever we're talking about pox's history it's really difficult to compare how things were to how things are now because so many things have changed.

The biggest and best change that has taken place over the last few years is that there is a consistent costing formula applied to all champions (with some exception), where it used to be that everything was priced at the designer's discretion. Within that model, skeletons were mostly a bunch of overpriced mediocre champs (skeleton raider was pretty crazy though). This was made up with boost3, which was an AoE5 aura that gave (iirc) +6hp, +4damage, +1 def, and +1 speed. The other 2 ranks of boost didn't give a speed or defense boost so didn't have as much of an impact on the game. Despite the huge theoretical power of boost3 (in today's game that's probably 15n of stats for every champ that receives it) skeletons were prenerfed enough that they were rarely a top deck.

As often happens in this game, abilities get spread out and the original "owners" of an ability eventually take a hit when that ability winds up somewhere else. I don't remember exactly how and when boost3 was removed but voil got it and became really strong, and I am pretty sure that that is when the speed and defense bonuses were removed. If you go through the forum's archives and look up "trees" and "boost" you will find the breaking point for boost as an ability, and the eventual solution of breaking the effects into boost and commander.

In addition, skeletons were the major beneficiaries of the "ichor" set of abilities, which were pretty cool but needlessly complex. Ichor was a conditional version of abilities like poison aura where you gain a rank for every other ichor champion (either friendly or enemy) within 5 spaces. This came pretty late into the game, and never really defined skeletons the way boost did. Surge is another ability that wasn't a big part of skeletons' identity until recently. Tomb lord was the only champ with it (if you look at the different expansions, you will see that skeletal lerper and blackblade baron are both relatively new champs) and dark rising wasn't about an instant surge bonus, rather an instant army with pretty good stats after boost3.

The history of themes in poxnora is really messy because most runes were developed ad-hoc for the first 10 or 15 expansions, and it wasn't until just before the Maljaran block that "theme decks" started to really become a widespread, viable thing rather than just a fun deck that someone would play for purely aesthetic reasons (with a few exceptions).

 

not everything needs a racial ability. In the case of skeletons they don't have such a thing but the race as a whole uniquely benefits from

Altar of Bones
Bone Mine
Bone Circle

these are all pretty strong things that justify their current design.

 

Still waiting for a Cyclops racial . . . .

tbh is maybe the only race that lack something to merge the units together...and if you say they are all fat 2x2 well...most of the cases(see maps) is bad for the entire race!

 

I think they have certain equipment too technically. Cyclops eye belt? On my cell phone now

 

yes they do have that, plus tribal hut (only for 4 different cyclops) plus the mammoth club and spike (they work efficently on 2x2 size champions) and maybe a couple of spells that can reconduct to them (scatter for example) but beside that not a real sinergy or a racial ability.

 

I was really surprised to hear themes didn't come about until the marijan expansion. I remember when people ran cleric of unrest , bone eles and dark knights in the same deck, and I thought "pay to win".

I guess I'm just surprised that the game lasted so long without considering how the game looked. (As in,everything was just "good stuff").

I just want "good stuff" to not be a thing. I'd much rather everyone fight using a theme, for several reasons. First, it allows for more variety in the long term. It will also bring the game to a more competitive state, and will make the meta more stable. It will make the game more balanced , and provide more clear weaknesses and strengths for such themes. It will also make factions as a whole feel more unique, and will allow for more unique styles of play (arryo are a good example of this, rift walker's riftwalk skill for instance. Finally, It will make the both the new player experience better, and the veteran experience better.

Right now, the bonuses one gets from a theme are not always enough to justify using the units in a thematic way. Cyclops are a good example of this, as mentioned. Binding them to 2x2 is not really aesthetically pleasing. A better option would allow for cyclops and 2x2 to coexist, as seperate themes (mechanics for both). Whether one chooses to play one or the will depend on which mechanics a player wants to play with (not saying all playstyles will be balanced, but they will at least be competitive relatively ala skill). A player who doesn't know how to play at all will still lose to a more skilled players.

Basically I'm excited to see more units have binding thematic mechanics which are unique. I'll edit more of this comment later.

 

Weirdly I'm with you on this ...or better I was thinking exactly like you a few years ago, I bet you were playing Heroclix only with themed squad instead of good stuff
My guess is that we have the same background in tabletop games, it took me a while to understand that poxnora is different, is closer to a tcg than a miniature one, but still is ,compared to other tcg, closer to a tabletop game .
Sadly for how is poxnora playerbase right now is not possible to "constrict" players using only themed decks , for example ranked games and ladder only for themed bg, and maybe you could be right about meta and variety but my guess is that would limid design space and player creativity (one of the best thing about this game) resulting in damaging the game/playerbase instead of revitalizing it.

We want a poxnora ala Warhammer (I'm personally against global effect in general for example and I will put a AOE/range on anything)and the only way to do it is like you are doing it, play what you like, your favorite racial themes (like i do) and play for fun (like I do).

 

Clops used to have boost3, which was huge for them, and 7trux was huge on his own. And it was killed among lots of other things with revamp.

 

until 1 month ago they used to have commander+ boost+ battlemaster (warwizard + chieftain )...they don't have boost and commander now and they can get, as all racial themes in SP, improve speed and eva 2 with the ghern general (flag bearer on a cyclops )...but we are still talking about stats, nothing more, cyclops needs an ability to help them moving around in a lot of maps, that let them feel a real poxnora race and not a bunch of chubby 2x2 units.