Arrow Eater

Discussion in 'Underdepths' started by Sokolov, Mar 29, 2017.

  1. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Desert Owl Games

    Might as well post this here and get some feedback :)

    Note: This is not something that's been decided, nor will it happen "soon" even if it does.

    One of the funny things about PoxNora is abilities that are similar... but different.

    One of these pairings is Arrow Eater and Elusive. They have been allowed to co-exist for a long time, and Arrow Eater is certainly fairly intregral to UD's flavor, so no change will be made lightly.

    However, it is true that these 2 abilities are, in many cases, very similar. The biggest difference is that Elusive has a fairly common counter in Precision.

    Both abilities are high-cost, high-reward and in the case of Arrow Eater, define one of the races (Vothsair) within the faction and is a very old, very defining ability for UD in general.

    Arrow Eater also has an offensive component, but one that really doesn't come into play in any meaningful way because no one would attack it at ranged if they remember it is there anyway.

    Lorewise, Arrow Eater is very different from Elusive as well and is intended to be a very different feeling/kind of ability.

    Proposal 1
    • Make Arrow Eater and Elusive the same ability, but reduce the Precision counter to 50% DMG
    • This idea simply consolidates the abilities, but also reduces the hard counter nature of Precision
    • Elusive's cost would remain 12, thus any champions with Arrow Eater would then cost -2 nora

    Proposal 2
    • Make Arrow Eater reduce ranged damage by 50%
    • Make Arrow Eater give +1 DMG permanently on each ranged attack and/or give 1 AP
    • Reduce cost by ~4
    • This effectively makes this Evasive 3 + offensive clauses, except that Precision would not counter it
    I am not much of a fan of Proposal 1, as I think it erodes the idea of UD Arrow Eaters too much. Proposal 2, or something along those lines, I think would make it a more unique ability that actually sees tactical interest, while giving both sides more to think about and consider. At the same time, it keeps the flavor of Arrow Eater and maybe even actually enhances it.

    Proposal 3
    • Make Arrow Eater reduce ranged damage 4 on the champion and champions in some AE (and stacks)
    • Make Arrow Eater give +1 DMG permanently on each ranged attack on the champion or within the AE
    • This is just a variant on Proposal 2 that makes it an AE coverage ability, and allows multiple Arrow Eaters to phalanx and potentially negate all ranged damage while in formation

    Thoughts/Feelings/Yell at me :)

    Again, this is meant to be a high-level discussion, and certainly not "coming soon" in any way. So don't freak out if you don't like it.
     
    Woffleet likes this.
  2. 5amb0

    5amb0 I need me some PIE!

    Proposal 2 looks good to me, if it has to change. It seems very well thought out.
     
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  3. 5amb0

    5amb0 I need me some PIE!

    Also I saw the idea of active abilities going around and thought arrow eater as an active could be interesting. aoe 3 range 5 cd3 1 round hidden until triggered, all ranged attacks from units in aoe are redirected to this unit and X occurs (ranged units are relocated 2 spaces closer, arrow eater gains dmg, AP etc). Just a super rough idea
     
  4. Hierokliff

    Hierokliff The King of Potatoes

    This is intresting
    For an old player with bad memory these abilities that you dont have to activate every turn or every 3rd turn are amazing.
    Dodge is so weak compaired to elusive, no-khan do, arroweater because i forget it.
    worst example (?) is Vashal Eremite that has both elusive leap + no-khan do, so 3 attacks will miss it, unless using AoE attacks.
    and if it would get a granite bracer i guess it would have 4 attacks per turn that is missing it?

    if arroweater is reducing 50% damage, and you get evasive on it, should it stack also?
    Arroweating AoE sounds like a version of nexus aura, which would be awesome in UD demon sharing pain
     
  5. RasielCZ

    RasielCZ I need me some PIE!

    I dont like arrow eater getting nerfed to be elusive or even evasive, there are counters to melee in Majestic and Intimidating, why would we give up our counter to ranged?
    Elusive is strictly inferior to arrow eater not because of precision, but because anz faction with acces to stun spell just powers trough.
     
  6. badgerale

    badgerale Warchief of Wrath

    Proposal 1 doesn't do anything to reduce complexity as the benefit of the consolidated ability is cancelled out by adding an extra clause to arrow eater/precision.

    Proposal 2 is the stand out one. On one hand I don't think arrow eater needs a nerf, and I like how it works in UD. On the other I can see this as a much better design since the arrow eating aspect is now in play, and there is a nice bit of meaningful decision making involved in deciding to attack it or not.

    I wonder if it should go to +2 damage to act as a greater deterrent. In any case you would need a lot of reworking runes.

    Proposal 3 is slightly convoluted but also a nice design, but it wouldn't really work that well in a rush faction like UD where you are rarely forming phalanxes.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2017
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  7. Vamania

    Vamania The King of Potatoes

    Is there a chart somewhere with ability costs? Arrow Eater vs Elusive vs Absorb vs Evasive
    Proposals 2 or 3, would some units switch from Arrow Eater (or Absorb) to Elusive (or Evasive) anyway? (Why does Thunderclops's lightning boots let him eat arrows rather then elude them?)
    #3 looks interesting if we wanted to rework Arrow Eater to a Vothsair racial (reaver and vanguard already have bonuses for grouping up.) It could be too close to Shroud though.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2017
  8. badgerale

    badgerale Warchief of Wrath

    If it went to proposal 2, absorb could probably be consolidated with arrow eater since they amount to much the same.
     
  9. Excalibur95

    Excalibur95 The King of Potatoes

    i used to think arrow eater was op since playing against it was so hard for me. since then i started playing ud and arrow eater champs and have changed my opinion, my arrow eater champions get killed so easy.

    i figured from this i didnt have the right runes in my bgs to counter arrow eater. spells make it easy but tbh are not needed, most people use some avg melee champs and my arrow eater guy dies.

    there are similar powered melee vs melee to ireguards, garu warguard comes to mind.. beserk units, northern cross avenger etc. all of which have no problem killing an ireguard with a little help. it seems every faction has some really strong melee and thus a way to counter ireguards / arrow eater, i see these melee deployed right after i put down the ireguard.

    the vothsair ireguard is not great at melee because it has no real defensive abilities so it dies easy. a simple stun, awestruck etc and the ireguard is fkd.

    i would like arrow eater to stay as it is and allow elusive to stay as is too, i like how precision only works for elusive and not arrow eater.

    i may change my mind if i stop playing ud and meet a lot of arrow eaters i cant kill, but think id be ok. playing ud has not been an easy win for me, though i do seem to win a little more.
     
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  10. Gorebucket

    Gorebucket I need me some PIE!

    Arrow Eater - This champion takes 5 less damage from ranged attacks. When this champion takes ranged damage, it gains +2 damage permanently and Unstoppable for 2 additional turns.

    Shroud - This champion and friendly champions within 4 spaces take 3 less damage from ranged attacks.
     
  11. SPiEkY

    SPiEkY King of Jesters

    I'm gonna be honest, I don't really like any of the proposed changes. Frankly, I don't see a need for a change at all, personally. I'd like to hear reasons for a change though (beyond the similarities between Arrow Eater and Elusive. Yeah, they're similar, but I feel they're different enough to warrant staying as they are), since this thread presumably wouldn't have been made without there being a decent degree of thoughts on the matter.
     
  12. Alfodur

    Alfodur The King of Potatoes

    Exact my toughts.
     
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  13. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Desert Owl Games

    The reasons are:
    • Similarity to Elusive
      • If we were designing Arrow Eater today, it almost certainly wouldn't do what it does
    • Lack of counter play and tactical interest in current implementation
      • All the proposals are intended to make it a more interactive ability tactically and strategically
      • Proposal 3 in particular tries to make it thematically more fitting/interesting for Vothsairs in particular
    • Unexplored design space that exists on the ability (offensive buff), but is largely non-interactive due to the ability's structure
      • That an "Arrow Eater" unit basically never actually eats arrows because no one shoots arrows at it has always been a little silly, though of course that's hardly a great reason to change something on its own
      • On this point, we could just make a new "arrow eater" type ability that is Proposal 2 to accomplish the same thing
    Again, I want to stress this is a fairly high level discussion and not intended to indicate a particular direction. I don't feel super strongly about changing it, but it is on the table as part of the larger ability consolidation push.

    EDIT: Oh, it'd also allow the ability to be used more often, as the current variant is pretty restrictive (which in of itself isn't a bad thing).
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2017
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  14. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Desert Owl Games

    It probably would.
     
  15. Schmacko

    Schmacko I need me some PIE!

    I'm surprised Rasiel is the only one to bring it up, but I feel like the impact of stun on the two abilities (and too a lesser extent paralyze) should've been outlined in the op. One hammerstrike, or other stun mechanism, and you can range spam an elusive champ until it's dead. This isn't true for arrow eater. As such proposal one is a minor buff for elusive and a huge nerd for arrow eater champs at a lowly cost reduction of 2.

    Also there are corner cases for self triggering arrow eater, like range attacking a champ with deflect and having it deflect into an arrow eater champ to avoid the dmg and self trigger the offensive buff. This is rare but it's the type of thing that a skilled player would think of.

    I'm in favor of leaving them as is. If I had to choose one I'd pick prop 2, but only if it helps out design space
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2017
  16. themacca

    themacca Master of Challenges

    I really dont want to see it changed tbh. Though if i were to be forced i would pick the 50% damage plus a damage boost. I'd like it to be bigger than 1 though
     
  17. nepyonisdead

    nepyonisdead I need me some PIE!

    Honestly sok, I think arrow eater is a fine ability and doesnt need change and it exists in one main faction so you know to expect it, And no one loses a game because he deployed a range vs arrow eater. With that being said ..a buff to elusive alone is not a bad idea frankly, the champs cost alot on something that can be countered by 20 nora harlberd of Jthir for example. I think this is the best solution because lets not fix what aint broken and strengthen a bit champs that cost a hight amount of nora ;)
     
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  18. nepyonisdead

    nepyonisdead I need me some PIE!

    And proposal 2 does sound reasonable as a buff to Elusive
     
  19. Xiven

    Xiven I need me some PIE!

    Developers are comin' to take our skills!
     
  20. Fentum

    Fentum I need me some PIE!

    Pincushion is hiding in the corner hoping these nasty people will go away.
     

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