Assessing Creepers (aka Wurmz!)

This thread contains the results of my exclusive playtesting of Wurmz since the last patch. My goal is to identify key weaknesses in the theme to determine the most effective solution(s) for improving the viability of Wurmz.

UPDATE: I've compiled a list of suggested changes

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SUGGESTED CHANGES

Necrosis (2-3 Nora)

+1 SDZ when deployed from the runedock (anywhere)
​

Worm Lord (5-6 Nora)

+1 SDZ when deployed from the runedock (anywhere)
+1 SDZ when a friendly Arthropod or Worm within 5 squares destroys an opposing real champion
All friendly Arthropods and Worms gain Impassioned while within your deployment zone​

This removes SDZ shrinking but applies a range to the SDZ expansion from kills granted by Worm Lord. Shrine Defender is very appealing, but Impassioned seems like a better alternative that doesn't provide a speed bonus as Worms shouldn't be overly mobile.

If this iteration of SDZ expansion proves too strong, we can scale back by reverting SDZ expansion from kills to basic attacks and imposing a range restriction for deploying champions outside of your base SDZ/FDZ. Something as simple as "champions deployed outside of your base deployment zones must be within X squares of a friendly champion."


Necro Hex [30N] - (rename "Necrotic Touch")

+1 SDZ
Target real champion gains Death Spawn: Carrionling, Hostile and Race: Worm
If it already has Race: Worm, it gains Boon of the Undead and Race: Undead
​

Conceptually, you "deploy" a Carrionling into the target that provides Hostile until the host champion dies and it enters play. This improves the spell's utility by providing more options for use than just granting Necrosis for SDZ expansion. Now any champion can benefit from this spell.

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Blinking Creeper - [10 DMG | 6 SPD | 3-5 RNG | 0 DEF | 45 HP] - Race: Arthropod Worm

Path 1 = Declare Target | Petrifying Gaze | Psychological Warfare
Path 2 = Detection 3 | Horrific Aura 2 | Unspeakable
Base = Attack: Psychic | Flight | Necrosis | Worm Lord
(Default upgrades = Petrifying Gaze + Unspeakable)
​

Starting with this fellah, I've pulled Undead (and BOTU) off Worms in favor of Arthropod with only a couple exceptions. Undead is too prolific a race (like Demon), the Arthropod synergy shouldn't be one-way and there are better ways to tie Worms to the rest of FW. Declare Target and Psychological Warfare are two abilities that have synergy in and out of theme. Declare Target is especially flavorful on a ranged Worm Lord.


Blood Fiend - [11 DMG | 4 SPD | 1 RNG | 0 DEF | 60 HP] - Race: Undead Vampyre Worm

Path 1 = Blood Frenzy 2 | Blood Rage | Exertion 3
Path 2 = Bleed | Lifedrinker | Life Siphon
Base = Attack: Physical | Berserker 1 | Blood Fueled | Boon of the Undead | Necrosis
(Default upgrades = Blood Frenzy 2 + Lifedrinker)​

He's already a solid champ, but Exertion ranks are boring. I've provided Blood Frenzy 2 and Blood Rage as alternatives to Exertion 3.


Bloodworm - [12 DMG | 6 SPD | 1 RNG | 1 DEF | 49 HP] - Race: Arthropod Vampyre Worm

Path 1 = Bleed | Combo Attack: Drain | Life Siphon
Path 2 = Bind | Bloodlust | Surge: Worm
Base = Attack: Physical | Brutality | Necrosis
(Default upgrades = Life Siphon + Bind)​

Dropped his SPD/DEF to raise his DMG and shuffled his abilities around to allow for a healing/damage pair of upgrade. Drop Multiattack 1 for Brutality (moved to base) to support the strength in numbers mentality of Worms without negatively affecting his role in Bleed/Vampyre BGs.


Boneshredder - replace Necrosis with a Skeleton themed ability

His kit just doesn't mesh well with Worms without making changes that would affect his role in Skeletons.


Carrion Colossus - [14 DMG | 7 SPD | 1 RNG | 2 DEF | 75 HP] - Race: Undead Worm Zombie

Path 1 = Disease Aura | Surge: Worm | Surge: Zombie
Path 2 = Swarm: Carrionling | Vivify | Zombie Apocalypse
Base = Attack: Physical | Boon of the Undead | Death Spawn: Carrionling | Chuck: Carrionling | Propagate Carrionling | Titan
(Default upgrades = Surge: Worm + Swarm: Carrionling)​

I love yobanchi's proposed Chuck: Carrionling ability as a replacement for Ravenous Torrent. Moving it to base and putting Swarm in an upgrade path with Zombie Apocalypse allows for optional synergy between Worms and Zombies. Following this logic, I've added Surge: Zombie as an alternative to Surge: Worm in the first path.


Carrionling - replace Surge: Carrionling with Surge: Worm

He's a part of Worms so make it official. The extra damage is also important to ensuring that the 0-1 attacks each will get off actually help.


Dusk Creeper - [7 DMG | 6 SPD | 2-4 RNG | 0 DEF | 45 HP] - Race: Arthropod Worm

Path 1 = Cloak 1 | Improve Damage | Improve Range
Path 2 = Protective | Startle | Surge: Shadows
Base = Attack: Sonic | Domain: Shadows | Necrosis | Still Life
(Default upgrades = Cloak 1 + Startle)​

As long as he's auto for nearly every FW BG due to being Undead (Improve "____"), he's going to be a problem. Furthermore, why was he revamped into a noramonkey? He overlaps with Death Harvester and Soul Collector without a good reason for doing so. Drop all of that nonsense, give him the capacity to apply situational damage and adjust his stats to better reflect his new role as a mid-range support attacker. These abilities also revive his previous connection to FW Stealth BGs.


Eye of Serkan - [10 DMG | 6 SPD | 4-6 RNG | 0 DEF | 48 HP] - Race: Arthropod Worm

Path 1 = Soul Channeling | Soultap | Soul Vitality
Path 2 = Frightful Blows | Soul Feast | Surge: Worm
Base = Attack: Psychic | Defenseless | Detection 3 | Necrosis
(Default upgrades = Soultap + Soul Feast)​

Soul Feast is a very poor upgrade option without a more reliable way to apply Soul Tapped (via Soultap). He's also a tad too squishy to square off with most ranged champs so I've upped his health and replaced BOTU with Defenseless to maintain his squishiness against melee attackers.


Mindthief Creeper - [8 DMG | 6 SPD | 2-3 RNG | 0 DEF | 45 HP] - Race: Arthropod Worm

Path 1 = Adaptation | Psychic Jab | Reflection 3
Path 2 = Energy Thief | Escape | Reinforcement 1
Base = Attack: Psychic | Evasive 2 | Necrosis | Paralyze | Still Life
(Default upgrades = Psychic Jab + Energy Thief)​

Adaptation is an interesting ability, but it's often not enough at the end of the day. Psychic Jab provides synergy both in (multiple psychic attackers) and out of theme. Returning Energy Thief just feels right given his name and previous usage while trading Shadowspawn for Still Life prevents this from being too strong. You'll always know where he enters play, but his ability to sneak about becomes more consistent.


Phantasmal Creeper - [12 DMG | 6 SPD | 1-2 RNG | 0 DEF | 38 HP] - Race: Arthropod Worm

Path 1 = Magical Aura 2 | Magical Bomb 1 | Magic Nova 3
Path 2 = Curse 2 | Hex 2 | Magical Attack
Base = Attack: Physical | Ethereal | Mirrored | Necrosis
(Default upgrades = Magical Nova 3 + Hex 2)​

With a horn like that, he needs a physical attack. Everything else is built around Ethereal's timer. Mirrored might seem odd alongside Ethereal, but I've tapped his health to account for this. Ideally it will allow for a more aggressive use of Ethereal for positioning. He'll go down quickly to physical attackers, but he's less vulnerable while incorporeal.


Putrid Creeper - [8 DMG | 6 SPD | 1 RNG | 2 DEF | 54 HP] - Race: Arthropod Worm

Path 1 = Assimilate | Life Siphon | Subsume
Path 2 = Defiant | Hex 3 | Tough 2
Base = Attack: Acid | Necrosis | Sunder | Worm Lord
(Default upgrades = Assimilate + Tough 2)​

These changes are straight-forward: a path for healing and a path for damage mitigation. Sunder on base makes him immediately more useful in theme and Hex 3 (in the mitigation path) provides the possibility of ranged damage.


Rotmaw Creeper - [10 DMG | 6 SPD | 1 RNG | 1 DEF | 48 HP] - Race: Arthropod Worm

Path 1 = Rabid 3 | Rapid Attack | Shred Defense
Path 2 = Assault | Clamp | Latch On
Base = Attack: Physical | Necrosis | Sword Breaker
(Default upgrades = Shred Defense + Assault)​

Adding Sword Breaker to base and moving Assault to an upgrade path allows for more compelling options. His first path includes extra damage for himself or for others while his second path is all about melee punishment.

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TEST RESULTS

FW Wurmz - (Testing Completed) - Total Wins = 3/20 Games

Final BG: http://www.poxbase.com/deck/CdVC74CfZc7-CdYCh CdTCdWs6ZspSgsns7oS4fs5arTR2Pe3e2ye21


Round 1 = 1/5 Games
(http://www.poxbase.com/deck/CdVCfZChMc7-cdYCh CfKCdUCdWs6ZSns5ds7ps4frTr2PE2Be2ye21E2J)

TL;DR

• Boneshredder is out
• Bloodworm is slacking
• Everyone else is fat and/or wearing silly "bling"

Round 2 = 0/5 Games
(http://www.poxbase.com/deck/CdVC74CfZC7-cdYCh CfKCdUCdWS6Zs2=Sns1ns7ps4frTR2Pe2ye21)

TL;DR

• Blood Fiends can't carry the theme on their own
• Execution Order is out
• Necro Hex is very questionable
• Grim Well is solid but doesn't make up for slower Wurmz
• Rotmaw Creeper is forever alone (switching from Shatter to Shred Defense)
• Blinking Creeper is a butter face, Necrosis/Worm Lord are sandbaggish (Siege is useless)
• Phantasmal Creeper is a depressing wallflower, needs more utility or a fashion makeover
• Putrid Creeper is a sleeping Snorlax, Revel in Misery/Worm Lord is not super effective!
• Eye of Serkan is a sexy pile of tentacles but lack of Necrosis is a dealbreaker
• Carrion Colossus is still up in the air, early signs point to "blargh!"
• 2x Polluted Martyrs may be required (currently not running them on purpose)

Round 3 = 0/5 Games
(http://www.poxbase.com/deck/CdVC74CfZc7-cdYCh cdTcfKCdUCdWS6Zspsns1ns7os4fs5arTR2Pe3e2ye21)

TL;DR

• Bloodworm needs access to Life Siphon + Surge
• Carrion Colossus gets the dunce cap
• 2x Dusk Creeper for reliability
• Eye of Serkan makes 1x Necro Hex somewhat required
• Mindthief Creeper is situationally useful
• Phantasmal Creeper is out
• Putrid Creeper is out
• Rotmaw Creeper is lose-lose-slow
• Domination and Steal Life are worth a slot
• Mobilization is less and less worthwhile (Wurmz struggle to leverage AP gen)
• Snuff is reliable, needs text update (Mutant -> Worm)
• 2x Soulreave for all the counters!
• Crown of Corruption "needs more time"

Round 4 = 2/5 Games
(http://www.poxbase.com/deck/CdVC74CfZc7-CdYCh CdTCdWs6Zspsgsns1ns7oS4fs5arTR2Pe3e2ye21)

TL;DR

• Carrion Colossus is out
• Necro Hex is out
• Crown of Corruption is just a backup plan

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FW/SP Wurmz - (Preparing BG)

Current Draft: http://www.poxbase.com/deck/CdVCfZCdZCdYCh CtBCaDCdWs6ZspsgS2Bs6Ys4fs5aS82r2Yr2Mr2Ze21

Uses SP Wurmz as tanks and FW Wurms as ranged umph. I have serious doubts regarding the viability of Necro Hex, but I plan to pair it with Spontaneous Congregation for aggressive SDZ expansion followed by Implant power turns.

 

Well, my issues thus far:

1. Carrionlings are Disease Eater. The only reliable source of Disease Aura in Worms seems to be the Colossus. But you have to give up Surge: Worm, so obviously not an option. Instead they get a healthy dose of Magic and Acid auras in their faces.

2. Putrid Creeper got Acid Aura but not Acid Acolyte as discussed. This along with the carrionlings getting attack acid. I think Revel in Misery is better tbh with the Rotmaw and Phantasmal enabling it, but the aura isn't helping and he could really do with an alternative method of dealing extra damage.

3. Worms have (as discussed) a good few Auras and a lot of DoTs. These do NOT trigger Necrosis' shrine zone expansion when they kill an enemy. This means utilizing them to their full effect often hinders your shrine zone expansion, negatively impacting your end-game.

 

This change is a drop in the ocean.

 

I'm concerned about the rate and maintenance of shrine zone gain so I'm pretty close to Entrepidus with playing it out and making conclusions afterwards.
They should at least be runnable as a bg now.

 

Mmk, first pair of BG drafts are finally up. Had some issues with the rune manager I finally sorted out.

I have to say I'm rather underwhelmed, but I've committed to specific tactics that probably aren't top tier just to test their viability. I won't really know what they're lacking to become top tier, otherwise. I have some early concerns regarding the above average cost for champs and the current version of Necrosis makes me wonder if Siege will ever be used.

I'll provide updates as I find out more

 

They still suck. The creep ability was never the issue. After revamp you have a gang of "support" champs who literally dont do much(Mindthief, phantasmal, the dusk is definitely efficient but its just a globe capture/font contester) and expensive champs who do not have good offensive stats or abilities. No good defensive abilities aside from the putrid creep. Who is around 79 nora and hits like a deep miner.

Eye of serkan is definitely better but its still 38 hps. The only worm I think is valuable is the blood fiend...

 

I approve of it all but I am generally unimpressed.

 

The SP split with implant is gonna be hella good. book it.

 

I for one am really happy with the options Creepers are getting. I'm definitely going to try a FS/FW Worm deck, so I'll keep you posted on how that turns out

 

FW Wurmz - Games 1-5

Using: http://www.poxbase.com/deck/CdVCfZChMc7-cdYCh CfKCdUCdWs6ZSns5ds7ps4frTr2PE2Be2ye21E2J

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Game 1 - AUTO-LOSS to SL Dragons on 3-font Ironfist Mountains

Early Deploys:

THEM: Mauler > Dragon Engine > Mauler
ME: Boneshredder > Eye of Serkan > Bloodworm​

I was flat out unable to compete with the early damage. He payed for Dragon Engine every turn and easily one-rounded my Boneshredder the turn after I was forced to contest the mid font. The rest of my champs died to pounce with very little resistance. Even with a perfect start, I very much doubt that FW Wurmz can withstand the speed and damage of SL Dragons on smaller maps. Larger maps may alleviate the issue, but you'd have to abandon SDZ expansion and deploy to fonts, instead.


Game 2 - AUTO-LOSS to FW Meta on 5-font Underdepths

Early Deploys:

ME: Bloodworm > (not enough Nora) > Boneshredder > Rotmaw Creeper
THEM: Blood Fiend + Bile Zombie > (nothing) > Blood Fiend + Dusk Creeper > Skeletal Berserker​

I started with 2x Bloodworm to choose between resulting in an inability to deploy the following turn. As a result, he was able to cap bottom font turn two with Blood Fiend and deployed another pair of champs there after I put down my Boneshredder. The game was so laughably one-sided that it's not worth explaining further. I was down two fonts the entire game and never stood a chance.


Game 3 - LOSS to SL Dragons on 3-font Ruins of Valdac

Early Deploys:

THEM: Varu Howler > Valdac > (nothing) > Vex > Varu Dragon
ME: Bloodworm > Putrid Creeper > (nothing) > Blinking Creeper > Phantasmal Creeper​

The early Vex made it very difficult for me to do anything but give up mid font. I played defensively, but it didn't matter in the end as the game ended abruptly via a not unexpected power turn. There was little I could do to stop it other than wait for it to happen. I was able to kill Vex in response (for giggles), but I'd lost three wurmz and was already down a font. His position was better in every way that mattered so I surrendered.


Game 4 - LOSS to FW Skeletons on 2-font Sundered Lands

Early Deploys:

ME: Boneshredder > Phantasmal Creeper > (nothing) > (nothing) > Rotmaw Creeper
THEM: Crossbone > (nothing) > (nothing) > Boneshredder w/Cloak of Skulls + Grekin > Bonewing​

The first half of the match was much better given the closer proximity of my Shrine to the first font. I could deploy by my Shrine for faster SDZ expansion than normal. Unfortunately, the only ranged champ I revealed was Dusk Creeper so we spent many turns shuffling around until his Lich King hit the board.

*facedesk*​

By the time I revealed and deployed an Eye of Serkan, he'd had several turns of sniping. It reached a point where my only viable option was to rush his slightly exposed Lich King with Mobilization. I power turned to kill three champs, but he power turned right back to kill my entire army via Dark Rising, Sacrificial Altar and Surge.

He literally wiped every champ I had off the board.


Game 5 - WIN against SL Draksar on 5-font Snarling Tangle

Early Deploys:

ME: Phantasmal Creeper > Phantasmal Creeper > Rotmaw Creeper > (nothing)
THEM: Temple Guard > Draksar Rocketeer > Serpentor Paradigm > Draksar Doomsayer​

I managed to time the flying turns for my Phantasmal Creepers perfectly to contest both of his fonts while I built my SDZ towards the middle. I parked a Rotmaw Creeper on the close side to contest and a pair of Blinking Creepers behind the wall to prevent a rush.

There was a particularly nasty power turn where he dropped Channeled Violence + Draconic Benediction before squishing a few worms, but I stalled with Petrifying Gaze until I could drop Carrion Colossus. He ended up surrendering, but I don't feel like I really won because I required being up two fonts just to prevent him from rolling over me. I finished the game with my SDZ back to its normal size and stood a very real chance of losing had my opponent given up.

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Before I continue, I want to point out that the +2 DEF from Worm Lord only applies to units in your SDZ; fonts don't grant this bonus. This means that both Necrosis and Worm Lord are utterly useless unless you are actively expanding your SDZ and huddling within it. Not once did Siege come into play and the +2 DEF is only going to become active in situations where you're probably already winning. Once the brawling starts and your SDZ begins to shrink again, the entire theme falls apart as your SDZ quickly abandons you.


Initial Thoughts

I can already tell you that Boneshredder isn't effective in this theme. He provides nothing beyond his (less) tanky face. Choosing Necrosis over Calcify/Scale Armor yields a squishy skeleton with no damage. Not choosing Necrosis means slower SDZ expansion or tying up slots with Necro Hex. But again, it's not like he's actually going to kill something for the +1 SDZ. I never had the opportunity to try Cloak of Skulls + Vendetta because he died so quickly. He doesn't belong in this theme and has zero synergy with Arthropods.

Most of the actual wurmz are either overcosted or too slow. Additionally, I found myself actively avoiding Aura kills so that I didn't miss out on SDZ expansion. Two of my damage dealers (Carrion Colossus/Eye of Serkan) don't have Necrosis, so I have to deploy a few other wurmz to ensure that I can expand my SDZ from kills. That said, Bloodworm was definitely useful at times, but I honestly don't understand why he's 80N for so little.

This comparison says it all:

Bloodworm - [10+ DMG | 7 SPD | 1 RNG | 2 DEF | 49 HP] = 80N

Attack: Physical | Boon of the Undead | Multiattack 1 | Necrosis | Surge: Worm

VS
​

Mauler - [10 (16) DMG | 7 (8) SPD | 1 RNG | 1 (2) DEF | 49 HP] = 75N

Attack: Physical | Execute | Pounce | Reduce Magic | Regeneration 1 | Sibling
​

While Mauler should probably be toned down a bit, there is a massive difference here. I'd need 6 other wurmz in play to equalize the base DMG, but Execute and Pounce puts Bloodworm so far behind that I just don't even. . . I'll play a few more games before I get ahead of myself, but Bloodworm was the only wurm I played every game. He was certainly capable of doing his job, but every opponent I played had one or more champs that did his job better.

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TL;DR

• Boneshredder is out
• Bloodworm is slacking
• Everyone else is fat and/or wearing silly "bling"

 

My biggest concern so far from reading the patch notes is that yet another section of the Wastes has been relegated to Split shenanigans. First we were made lacky to the gimmicky vampyre theme, and now the gimmicky (ludicrously so, it might turn out) 'wurmz' theme.

Skeletons seem fine, spirits are giving people a hard time, and I'm not sure I've seen anyone playing zombies lately.

I have hopes that this 'necrosis' schtick is going to pan out to something useful, but they way it looks on paper, there's just not going to be enough expansion of the Shrine zone expansion. (I honestly think it should be 2 on deploy, one on death, but whatever).

And Worm Lord just boggles me.......how in the bloody hell is it really supposed to be any kind of useful? +2def if you turtle, and a sandbag like Siege if you're rolling your opponent over and spread your SDZ all the way across the bloody map....This ability seriously needs to be looked at, unless it's supposed to be permanent or have a duration for leaving the SDZ that isn't working or in the description.

edit 1-One further thought; For Boneshredder, maybe some serious consideration in swapping Necrosis and Zeal in the upgrade trees, it really needs SOME kind of defensive measure if it's going to be used in wurmz

edit 2- Snuff is at the very least going to need the mutant racial qualifier changed to worm (maybe worm/arhtropod), although the whole spell could really use a rework. For a spell called Snuff, it really doesn't do much in the line of killing something.

 

THANK YOU for saying this!!!!! maybe someone will listen to a well respected member of the FW community. In the discussion forum about the creeps I stated the same thing FW is not a FF faction any more we are here just to make the other factions better and to keep 1 thing that was solely made for FW, FW

EDIT: A question for the masses

How can the best Worms, Carrion Colossus , Eye of Serkan and possibly Polluted Martyr, not have Necrosis on base or at least as a upgrade?..
​

Phantasmal and Mindthief Creeper have it and they don't even have a attack.

Ya I know use Necro Hex. My thought is that Necro Hex would be for the lesser Worms not for the back bone of the class. Now the 1 champ will cost me 25 nora more to get zone expanded

P.S. As I see it out of the 12 Worms only 6, Carrion, Eye, Matyr, Blinking, Blood Fiend and Bloodworm will be the ones that kill things - didnt count rotmaw due to 5 speed

 

@Nite2kill, I recall your concerns in that thread and I felt like we had appropriately addressed it with the changes we'd come to as a group. The problem is that somewhere after the suggestions were submitted, the decision was made to mash Fesh and random worm-like creatures into Creepers as Wurmz. . . with random Arthropod tolerance. . .

I agree that Creepers are now almost forced into SF BGs. I'd encourage you to play a few games with them, though, to help me in providing detailed feedback. In a couple days I'll be dropping my conclusions on some heads in an effort to push this "can of worms" back in the right direction.

 

I have played a few games with them (Full Faction) and my concerns are in my other post as in Mercers and in Demthedarks' postings

 

Okay I must be missing something here. Why would they give wurms siege in their own deployment zone?

Isn't that...the last place in the world where siege would really be helpful?

 

Because they can increase the deployment zone. But I agree, siege is only useful when you are already winning.

 

I am guessing the siege in your zone will help destroying a relic if it is contesting a font (or by some miracle you get the zone to your opponents shrine) - wont happen - I cant get the deployment zone to the other font on the FW map and I am running Carrionlings

 

From my old experience playing Creepers and Mutants, which honestly look a lot like what Worms are now, you want to go all in on initiative champs and play a surprise damage game. I really doubt Carrion Colossus is a smart deploy in most situations, and against SP he's almost a liability (Winstigator eats carrionlings for breakfast), I never liked Bloodworm and still don't, and Boneshredder doesn't really impress me.

I don't think any worm deck should be run without the following:

• 1-2x Mindthief Creeper
• 2x Polluted Martyr
• 2x Blood Fiend

However, I'm afraid the fact that Creep (Necrosis) kept the reduction clause on death, probably by dev command, means the theme continues to have no late game and is relegated to rushing or win-more attrition.

 

One issue I see is the availability of Worm Lords to new players. I dislike any mechanic that requires Exotic or Legendary runes to field.

Also, what's up with Bloodletter? Undead Arthropod Vampyre Worm? Is this the FW equivalent of Barbarian Human Paladin?

 

only as a split? then its a fail.