Boosts, Commanders and Defenders OH MY!

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Sokolov, Jan 21, 2015.

  1. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    NEW PROPOSAL

    Boost: X - Global, ? HP for stated X (Nora: ???)
    Commander - AE5, DAM 2 for all friendlies (Nora: 8)
    Commander: X - AE5, DAM 2 for the stated X (Nora: 5)
    Defender - AE5, DEF 2 for all friendlies (Nora: 8)
    Defender: X - AE5, DEF 2 for the stated X (Nora: 5)

    So base Commander and base Defender will be for everyone, if there is a specific race or class listed, it's for that set only. Obviously the race restricted versions would be cheaper.

    Boost would become global, and be an HP buff only.


    ~

    I have been working with @badgerale on a number of ability consolidation tasks. This is one of the current proposals.

    Boost 1: Friendly champions that share a race or class within 5 spaces gain +4 HP. This ability does not stack. (Nora: 4)
    Boost 2: Friendly champions that share a race or class within 5 spaces gain +7 HP. This ability does not stack. (Nora: 8)

    Commander 1: Friendly champions that share a race or class within 5 spaces gain +1 DMG. This ability does not stack. (Nora: 3)
    Commander 2: Friendly champions that share a race or class within 5 spaces gain +2 DMG. This ability does not stack. (Nora: 6)

    Defender 1: Friendly champions that share a race or class within 5 spaces gain +1 DEF. This ability does not stack. (Nora: 3)
    Defender 2: Friendly champions that share a race or class within 5 spaces gain +2 DEF. This ability does not stack. (Nora: 6)

    Aid: Defense - When this champion successfully damages a champion with a basic attack, friendly champions within 5 spaces +1 DEF for 4 turns. This stacks up to 3 times. (Nora: 4)

    ~

    Along with this, Improve Damage and Battlemaster would go away.

    Improve Speed would stay for now.

    Themes like Constructs which require and off-race/class buff would get one, so Boost: Construct would stay, but also fit into this structure.

    One of the goals here is to also limit the overabundance of same-stat stacking, and allow for champions to be more specifically designed to boost one particular aspect of a theme.

    Unlike the faction bonus thread, which is a high level discussion, this (or something very similar) is very likely.

    ~

    Discuss! As always, details not final, subject to change, blah blah.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2015
    ghklf, PurpleTop, Xiape and 4 others like this.
  2. Rokkushun

    Rokkushun Devotee of the Blood Owl

    Is improve range here to stay? What about aid: defense?
     
  3. xezno

    xezno I need me some PIE!

    I would just like to say that seeing stuff like this as a proposal is awesome! Discussing it with the community is double awesome! Anything that simplifies the game is a huge bonus in my perspective since half the time I can't remember all the abilities on my own champs, let alone the ones I am facing. However could this be simplified even futher into just 1 and 2? For example remove the middle option all together and just have two options? Greater and lesser ability in a sense. Why does there always need to be 3 options?
     
    Woffleet likes this.
  4. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Improve Range would probably stay, Aid: Defense I am on the fence about, but leaning towards axing as well.
     
  5. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Because 3 is the best number.
     
  6. BurnPyro

    BurnPyro Forum Royalty

    I like how it's no longer about 1 ability on 1 champ that gives a bunch of different stats.
     
  7. Pedeguerra

    Pedeguerra I need me some PIE!

    Consolidation = good.
     
    DarkJello and Woffleet like this.
  8. Pedeguerra

    Pedeguerra I need me some PIE!

    Aid: Defense is good, I feel.
     
  9. Woffleet

    Woffleet I need me some PIE!

    I love it! Finally themes can have some real strength behind them! Hopefully soon Moga will become fun to play again!
     
  10. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    I am also not sure where Sermon sits in this AXIS OF BUFFS.
     
  11. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Oh yea, and this implementation means that it can be used in a lot of themes, AND it's a soft-theme, in that a Paladin Dwarf could both be in a Dwarf centric-build or a Paladin-centric build. One or the other may or may not work, but the option opens up for players to explore.
     
    Etherielin, Sirius and Woffleet like this.
  12. xezno

    xezno I need me some PIE!

    Not to question your intelligence but you are WAY off here. 73 is the best number and here is my proof:
     
    voodoov, Joker and DarkJello like this.
  13. doubtofbuddha

    doubtofbuddha I need me some PIE!

    For constructs specifically I am concerned that nerfing the "boosts" will render them unplayable. They are not even top tier at the moment and this may push them down even further. Now, if they might get boosted individually as a result, but I am concerned that they, and other themes such as beasts that rely on boosts, will get pushed further into unplayability.

    With that being said, I do support standardization and toning down the bonuses on the whole.

    Unless you plan to spread these bonuses out and allow for layering, of course.
     
  14. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Keep in mind any change to these things affects ANY and ALL themes that utilize them (which is many of them), so it wouldn't be a directed nerf at a specific theme. You COULD make the argument some themes bank on these boosts more, but I suspect IS Constructs isn't one of them (given they have single target buffs and a lot of other support abilities that are specifically for Constructs).
     
  15. Jib

    Jib Better-Known Member

    I don't like change

    And it took exactly 26 hours for Lonx to get Sermon nerfed. I'm on to you.
     
  16. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Sermon isn't being nerfed... yet :D
     
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  17. doubtofbuddha

    doubtofbuddha I need me some PIE!

    Right. But it does directly hit themes that rely on these bonuses in a way that it does not for themes that do not. I was just using constructs as an example.

    As long as this is part of a general framework of putting themes in a better position, I think it will be mostly beneficial. I just want to make sure how this is going to weaken the themes that use it is taken into account.
     
    Gorebucket likes this.
  18. daeminicus

    daeminicus Devotee of the Blood Owl

    Love this proposed changed!
     
  19. Sirius

    Sirius I need me some PIE!

    I am a fan of this soft-theme thing over closed up powerful themes. Mostly because to this day I've yet to find a theme I'm fully happy with, so I like being able to try out modules or splash stuff without feeling like I'm constantly screwing myself over.

    That being said, I want to point out something: while I really dislike this approach I'm mentioning, making themes more self contained does open up some design space; you can make the exact same champion 5 times, but belonging to 5 different themes and only playable with them.
    So by doing the opposite, like in this case, you are sort of reducing future design space (in exchange for more control over stacking buffs and more fun with the runes we already have).
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2015
  20. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    Agreed with @doubtofbuddha. Any broad change will have winners and losers; there isn't some true-fair change. Which is not to say that that's news, just that it's especially important with sweeping changes like these. This consolidation looks good.

    What about non-race/class buffs, though? Is DOG looking to make everything about race and class now? Are there going to be non-race/class abilities that provide proximity buffs, or are all boosting effects of any form going to be dependent upon these two qualities? While this is cleaning up a lot of design - awesome - it's suggestive of a shift in philosophy about which I'm skeptical.
     
  21. Xirone

    Xirone I need me some PIE!

    What about abilities like Foment and Hearten? Would they be done away with?
     

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