Cactuar Crate: Planar Disturbances

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Sokolov, Jul 28, 2016.

  1. Cydna

    Cydna Forum Royalty

    @TeaNinja Your close-mindedness is one of the thing that keeps UD in it's shitty kill or die state.

    Look at Repair for instance, it went unnerfed for so long because of how weak Constructs were. Now that they're good and finally don't need the crutch, Repair got tapped.


    If Anthropod Frenzy is the glue holding your spider theme then you should probably be more focused on buffing the spider theme rather than preventing the nerf of the crutch spell.


    You make it seem like UD is the only faction that has ever been targetted for more nerfs than any other faction. I'm sure IS and SP can tell you all about how many nerfs they've received.
     
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  2. Cydna

    Cydna Forum Royalty

    Summons have been weaken numerous times. The last time I saw problematic summons was when Myx were good.
     
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  3. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY I need me some PIE!

    My point is that instead of having cancerous mechanics work off of low hp summons, effectively ruining the entire theme of skeletons, why not just not allow the cancerous mechanics, then nerf specific themes if necessary? I can see why swarm and battle leader working on infested corpses might be balanced, but it ISN'T on skeletons (specifically, but I am sure there are other themes). And why is there a double standard where things like gravebind do not work on summons, but swarm does? My guess is that it is leftover from the time where gravebind had multiple procs per turn, but that isnt the point again.

    My point is that design wise, it doesn't feel enjoyable to have my own units lose me the game due to battle leader or swarm. And I understand that ritual of destruction exist, and that is a way to go about countering them countering me, but it doesn't really solve the issue of how imbalanced swarm is towards skeletons (worms spiders?) in the first place. I'd rather have skeletons do 2 damage and be immune to things like battle leader and swarm.
     
  4. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    I think you make some interesting points here and the question of "should on kill abilities trigger off summons" is certainly a valid one.

    First, I'd say that different types of BG/mechanics are always going to be weak to certain other types of mechanics - it's just always going to be the case.

    As for Battle Leader vs Gravebind - remember one big difference - Gravebind triggers in an AE without the champion with the ability needing to do the killing.

    Battle Leader only triggers if the champion with the ability gets the kill, while Gravebind can trigger from ANY kill and a single kill can trigger multiple Gravebind type abilities. Because of this difference, Gravebind and the like vs summons would be much more devastating than Battle Leader and is from a pure mathematical perspective of number of potential triggers.

    For this reason, abilities in Battle Leader's "class" of "on kill by this champion" abilities typically do trigger on summons:
    • Swarm: X
    • Souldrinker
    • Spirit Harvest
    • Essence Claw
    While Gravebind and other "on kill by anyone" typically are real only:
    • Gravebind, Voil Caverns, etc.
    • Worm Lord
    So I think it's largely consistent. If there were to be a change to Battle Leader, I'd probably be more interested in other types of changes.
     
  5. TeaNinja

    TeaNinja I need me some PIE!

    Oh, we're using personal attacks now? Interesting.

    AF is not even a crutch though. Spiders are a good theme even without AF. But AF is not THAT good (not OP). That's why it's so ridiculous that someone is nerf calling it.
     
  6. TeaNinja

    TeaNinja I need me some PIE!

    I could see Seismic being reduced to 6 instead of 8. Would Seismic line up fairly with Tremor then?
     
  7. Vote Kanye 2020

    Vote Kanye 2020 Better-Known Member

    I see seismic leap is already getting a nerf, but could I suggest that it gains an additional cooldown or loses it's ''ignores defense'' clause it has. I feel that even with it being toned down to 8 damage it's still a swiss army knife of an ability, it offers AoE damage which bypasses defense, a knockback and a slow all for the cost of 4 ap.

    Also on the topic of seismic leap, is there any chance that it could be fixed for 2x2 champs. Leaping on the 3rd space as a 2x2 is very inconsistent meaning it doesn't actually affect champs about 50% of the time.
     
  8. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY I need me some PIE!

    Thanks for the response.

    Firstly, looking at FW options, I can't really see multiple options for gravebind / restless souls. In a real game, I'll at most have out two black blade barons. At most, I will get two weak summons out of it.

    This is assuming you get a kill every turn, on a non summoned unit. Which doesn't happen. It especially doesn't happen when you spent 155 Nora on two bbbs, since I doubt you'll have a tomb lord or strong ranged fighter to get kills on weak retreating units. But let's say you have all 3, you most certainly won't have the surge available to deal critical damage and secure a kill.

    Swarm gives you an entire unit on every kill, and some poorly designed units can swarm on a swarm , like skeezick rioter and locust. You will get these kills and snowball chains nearly 100% of the time versus something like dark rising. The only counter is out drawing the opponent with ritual spells in this scenario.

    Battle leader will give you 1.5 damage and 6 health per turn once a player commits, since you will be getting 1.5 kills per turn on average vs a low hp theme. retreating isn't always an option as well, versus say KF. This scales multiplicatively with breath attcks, see jangis arcanis.

    When stated like this, it's pretty clear which mechanics snowball harder, and are about equally consistent if you take the barrier of entry into account.

    But I'm only trying to argue that battle leader should proceed once per turn, or be dispel-able. I'm trying to argue that swarm shouldn't work on low hp summons such as skeletons with sub 25 hp. Because it is just insane as is currently against these types of themes.

    And I do not think grave bind should work off of enemy 5 hp worms, it would be unfair. But in the same sake of fairness, swarm and battle leader shouldn't work on low hps. That is what I meant by consistency. Because in terms of win rate, I think the abilities swarm and battle leader are much higher if they could be isolated and measured as the abilities on average themselves.


    It will still be very strong, having to deal with a locust or corgi ranger even if they were nerfed in this specific regard.However, the game wouldn't be so much about draw win, which should try to be minimized as much as a cg, allows, even if it is hard to do.
     
  9. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    I am not sure how you can argue that you get 1.5 kills per turn with Battle Leader while being unable to secure any kills at all with the other abilities... especially since we are discussing if those abilities also worked on summons.

    Especially considering you need to get the kill with Battle Leader champion while the other you can use any source.

    In any case, a good example of the power of Gravebind, etc. was Voil - they were deploying multiple sources of Voil Caverns and summoning large amounts of summons even against real champions. Zombies was doing a similar thing with their ability.

    These were what prompted the nerf on those abilities.
     
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  10. OriginalG1

    OriginalG1 I need me some PIE!

    Battle leader being global is really lame. If Vendetta where to grant global vengeful people would bit their lip and flip their desk over in disgust.

    Battle leader is power creep ability that has spot deployment in faction that specializes in super champs and keeping these super champs alive at all costs. I have played more then one game where a priest of valdac has gotten well over 16 damage. I can almost make a flow chart about it. Did I lose to IS, or KF, where they able to get battle leader out?
     
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  11. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY I need me some PIE!

    I understand not all bgs are equal. So I'm just trying to talk within the Skelly theme, since I am a trash player and don't even know what half the runes do.

    I'm taking my statistics from real examples I have played in. I play only Skelly, since I find it easier to learn the game and game mechanics.

    I make mistakes in my game play. I recognize ALOT of them.

    Here's one thing I'm noticing: you keep saying "not from source". That is in no way more of an advantage than working on summons. Let's just use bbb for now. He does 20 - 30 damage at times. I can assure you, he will be the one dealing damage and getting kills.

    As for other abilities, let's take skeezick rioter for example. I believe he is deployed with two high hp summoned units. If these units are face tanking, how am I going to hit his backline? I need ritual, or to gamble exposing a card such as TL, on the off chance I have it in position, and on the off chance he doesn't then cast reforge, or some sinister trick when he comes into range. And then, I need to make sure I have enough damage to kill the REAL unit I'm focusing, before he kills my weak hp tanks with swarm units.


    Second case KF corgi ranger. I am building an army of skellies he casts grimlic bane for 35 Nora, and kills them off one by one with bl procs. If I engage, he has mobility. He gets a favorable engage and ends up eventually getting the 1.5 discussed plus the extras he picked up.

    And lastly, I engage on a leoss bg with a dark rising, they counter with a medal of valor. I have no spot shatter, animated blade can't get close. I can either pull out and let him have a free 12 hp + 3 damage, probably more, as well as my 50 Nora, and try to turtle with altar, or I can all in. I lose the all in, because battle leader too strong vs Skelly.

    I think locust speaks for itself? You simply kill skeletons with it, and it is very hard to counter.

    And keep in mind , smelliest have sub-par stats, because they are a themed race, meaning they are meant to work in large numbers.

    This could happen to many other themes, but I choose not to comment on other themes, because I really wouldn't know what I'm talking about. But I'd suspect UD has a slightly easier time with spiders due to shatter spell and a real bonus. (Salt)
     
  12. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY I need me some PIE!

    Not a super champ. Several super champs if they get enough profs. Yeah, the global thing is insult to injury, I've thought of that as well. Combined with the fact these factions can go back and turtle heal to full hp. Making it dispellable is a good first step, one proc per turn would be another, or set an HP min value.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2017
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  13. Cydna

    Cydna Forum Royalty

    Ya know, I don't really play FW... But I feel like if you're just using Dark Rising without following with Sac Altar you're not using it correctly.
     
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  14. themacca

    themacca Master of Challenges

    I have played attrition for a really long time and probably more than any other player of recent notes. Yes low cost low hp/summons. Have counters that can snowball into an easy victory.

    And you know what. Get over it. The exact same thing can happen on the other side of the spectrum (over run by cheap meat) it's all about who makes use of their mechanic better and out plays the opponent.

    If a battle leader unit is killing a bunch of your stuff that's your fault for leaving yourself in a position to let only one specific unit get multiple kills
     
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  15. Karamasov

    Karamasov Lord of SL & Master of Challenges

    I still think it would be stronger, but that's my opinion, and not all abilities need to be equal ;) An extra tap in some direction, maybe dam (as was first considered), and time can tell if it still needs tweaking.

    Edit: Just found out that Tremor is CD2, so think Seismic Leap should be fine at 6 damage.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2017
  16. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY I need me some PIE!

    Which is why I mentioned why not be consistent and let gravebind work on everything, since the game is already polarizing as you mentioned.

    Although in truth, I think certain things like
    battle leader, swarm , etc should be toned down on things with extremely low Max hp. Why should mechanics which are so extremely polarizing be in the game? There should be limits on what it means to counter something.
     
  17. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY I need me some PIE!

    Lol, why not just cast chain lightning twice? Or essence drain? 90 Nora...

    Also, you need a really lucky spread to use dark rising sac alt combo.

    You need the skeletons for surge, that's the whole point of using skeletons. I do use altar of bones with them though, offensively. 25 Nora and u can place on a font.
     
  18. Tweek516

    Tweek516 I need me some PIE!

    All these are terrible examples. They assume an incredibly subpar FW player who performs no counterplay, and are very specific scenarios.

    And you don't need to get that lucky with the dark rising spawns for altar.
     
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  19. Cydna

    Cydna Forum Royalty

    If you're using Dark Rising for surge you're definitely playing Skeletons wrong...
     
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  20. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY I need me some PIE!

    Well, there's no other reason to use dark rising then other than for font grabs, it just wouldn't be worth the Nora cost.

    I don't think I'm playing skeletons "wrong" I just don't think the theme works very well ATM. I mean, sometimes I can win, but if an opponent has battle leader or swarm (as most meta decks do) my chances of winning drop to 10% (hope for a DC). Not to mention psychic decks which also hard counter skellies, due to tl and xulous having attack psychic, as well as still water mutant global.

    I think the problem is the theme itself has an arbitrary high number of counters. Not saying its as bad as vampires, or that certain themes aren't worse off, I'm just saying it doesn't feel fair that a few runes can hard counter any low hp rune, and even more so when a THEME strategy relies on low hp runes.

    I like what you said about anthropod frenzy. Whether or not a crutch rune is OP shouldn't be the focus of balance for healthy design. I get annoyed when players in general think that way. (BTW teaninja, I don't even know what a. Frenzy does, so....)
     

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