Cactuar Crate - Ronin Edition

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Sokolov, Jan 20, 2015.

Page 32 of 125
  1. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    I do appreciate that feedback, but Ranged DOT has the same problem tho. Additionally, when you say 1 of 2 ranged Drunks... what are you referring to exactly? There are exactly 3 champs with Drunken and 2 of them are ranged? I would also note his cost goes down by 9 with the change, and he keeps a range 3 Sunder.
     
    Sokolov, Feb 9, 2015
    #621
    JaceDragon likes this.
  2. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    It hasn't mattered so far what I showed, you will twist it into whatever you feel like it. For example, you have simultaneously argued that popularity is power, that popularity isn't power, that the top 200 doesn't matter, that it proves KF isn't OP, etc. It seems like every other post I read you are using the data in a different way that contradicts what you thought earlier.

    Additionally, you have not even said what this new data would show that would prove X or Y, and there's no way anyone can actually "prove you wrong" as you want to claim, and you will use the new data to argue whatever you want (based on previous examples). If KF is under-represented in low ranks, you will say "See, KF is not OP, the current representation in the top 200 is normal" or "See, KF is not OP, if it was more people would play it." And if KF is over-represented in the low ranks, you will see say, "See, KF is not OP, if it was these people would be high rank."

    Lastly, trying to bait me into doing something you want in this manner will get you nowhere. Show some genuine interest in the data and understanding the game better and maybe I will indulge.
     
    Sokolov, Feb 9, 2015
    #622
    Etherielin likes this.
  3. SPiEkY

    SPiEkY King of Jesters

    Angel of Pain has a Physical attack, so the first two aren't really a problem.
     
    SPiEkY, Feb 9, 2015
    #623
  4. polltroy

    polltroy I need me some PIE!

    Ok, my idea as follows:

    From % of top 200 we could see some factions have higher % than others. It was argued this shows those factions are more powerfull. It was also argued it shows those factions are more popular. I was saying it shows some of both. So i hope by comparing the whole population to the top 100 or 200 ranks thereby to correct for popularity of a faction. So in the kf and ud example, if ud has high % in top 100 but low in the whole population, it would show ud is "powerfull". If in contrary ud has high % in whole populatoon, but low in top 100, it would mean ud is "weak".

    So now u can choose to show data or not, depending on if it will give the result you want :)
     
    polltroy, Feb 9, 2015
    #624
  5. Markoth

    Markoth Lord Inquisitor

    The change would make Sharpshooter the only ranged champ with Drunken. Drunken doesn't provide any synergy with drunk decks other than giving Iron Will and Fearless, something that isn't often important. Other than that the Sharpshooter doesn't bring much to the deck. Drunk decks operate by buffing your units and debuffing opponents as well as maximizing equipment usage with abilities like Provision and Surge: Equip. Brutes maximize the buff efficiency (Thru brews) and are central to the theme. Hooligans are the only ranged Brute and thus favored. A healthy theme needs variety and limiting a decks ranged options to a single unit (One very loosely affiliated) would be detrimental (Though not devastating.) Sunder definitely needs to go but I agree that making him a "melee" unit wouldn't be good. If his range needs to drop to 4 (Would line up with Feint) that's cool.

    Oh. Quite so. In that case get rid of it.
     
    Markoth, Feb 9, 2015
    #625
    SlickDragon likes this.
  6. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    You were doing so well, then you had to throw the last line in.

    ~

    Anyway, let's discuss the actual proposal.

    The argument is that the differential in top rank popularity vs lower rank popularity is a measure of a faction's power.

    This makes several assumptions:
    • All factions are equally appealing to all players, regardless of skill level
      • Fundamentally, this is known to be untrue, as new players habitually flock to specific factions, such as UD
    • All factions have the same scaleability in terms of power from lower to higher ranks
      • This is unlikely to be true, factions are going to have differences in how easily one can transition from lower to higher ranked
    • Faction popularity in one faction does not impact faction usage in others in meta reports
      • Unfortunately, this can't be true given that we are talking about the current data we have, which is about active decks (of which each player has only one)
    So I don't think that it's reasonable to argue that an often used faction in lower ranks should be the same in higher ranks. There are just too many assumptions there.

    Additionally, we do see that at least in the data currently already presented, that in regards to your specific interest (KF) that the usage of the faction actually goes DOWN as you go down the ranks, not up (and not by an insignificant margin either):

    upload_2015-2-9_20-6-24.png

    Is there a reason to believe further down the ranks this changes for KF? Not specifically, but it's certainly possible.

    That said, I appreciate you making an effort, so I will consider your request and maybe spend some time on that data to present later this week.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2015
    Sokolov, Feb 9, 2015
    #626
    Etherielin and SlickDragon like this.
  7. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    Thanks for the data, Sok. Would it be possible to provide one additional set of bars for 1-200? It would be easier to look at it.
     
    kalasle, Feb 9, 2015
    #627
  8. sassquatch

    sassquatch I need me some PIE!

    Dots are all over the place in this game though. Also you can't stack a dot (or the -1 def from scour) but you may be able spread it around. Additionally we already have a front line carouse in the brewmaster, having a ranged support unit with it provides deck and positional versatility. The other ranged unit I was referring to was the sharpshooter btw. I was referring to thematic synergy and not so much the drunken ability directly.
     
    sassquatch, Feb 9, 2015
    #628
  9. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    That is what the Grand Total is.
     
    Sokolov, Feb 9, 2015
    #629
    Etherielin likes this.
  10. jsat

    jsat The King of Potatoes

    Does data not exist for runes played who won on what map and perhaps other metrics like number of turns etc, perhaps to include rank of players at the time to allow for likelihood rating adjustment? The obvious data is win rate and win rate vs x, but that you haven't posted that strongly implies it isn't available. Frequency of rune x in bgs, win rate per rune etc all obvious metrics with their flaws as well, but as they are by definition scaled to the frequency with which tthey are played you will account for the biases you have above...I would be surprised to Learn* this data isn't kept.
     
    jsat, Feb 9, 2015
    #630
  11. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    Oh, then I was misreading the data. I thought "Grand Total" referred to the entire player-base.
     
    kalasle, Feb 9, 2015
    #631
  12. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    It is kept, just not easily pulled or utilized. I have actually presented that kind of data in the past.

    We are working on fixing that stuff so I can get access to that data more readily.
     
    Sokolov, Feb 9, 2015
    #632
    Etherielin likes this.
  13. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Ah yea, I can see how you might think that, but no, not yet. I have to do additional work to do that.
     
    Sokolov, Feb 9, 2015
    #633
    Etherielin likes this.
  14. Vorian

    Vorian I need me some PIE!

    Could you please tell me that the SP player base makes up more than 5.67% of the total player base. I would hate to think we are that unpopular!
     
    Vorian, Feb 9, 2015
    #634
  15. Shimaru

    Shimaru Devotee of the Blood Owl

    Question: is there any way we can see what are the most popular upgrades on the top meta champions?

    I mean, how true is that people always pick the first rank on all the DoT, or the higher rank on charge generation abilities? Does anyone ever pick curse rank 2?
     
    Shimaru, Feb 9, 2015
    #635
  16. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Yes, this is available as well. I'll put it on my list.
     
    Sokolov, Feb 9, 2015
    #636
    Etherielin likes this.
  17. HalfGodBro

    HalfGodBro The King of Potatoes

    you know right that angel of pain have attack Physical?
     
    HalfGodBro, Feb 9, 2015
    #637
  18. heroex7777

    heroex7777 Lord of ST

    anyone else think that [02/06] Containment Unit - HP to 10 from 20 is ridonkulous? maybe 15 hp but 10 hp for a 40 nora relic that saps all of your ap and causes engaged when de-crystalizing.. >.>

    nerf reclaim

    [02/04] Experitmental Warspirit to 6 speed
    nectar fairy to 6 speed

    they'd both still be playable as hell.
     
    heroex7777, Feb 9, 2015
    #638
    Vorian likes this.
  19. HalfGodBro

    HalfGodBro The King of Potatoes

    Containment unit will still be played a LOT even at 1 HP, because its that 1 turn Impervious that wins game
     
    HalfGodBro, Feb 9, 2015
    #639
  20. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Engaging upon De-Crystalizing isn't something I consider WAI, thanks for reminding me.
     
    Sokolov, Feb 9, 2015
    #640
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