Cactuar Crate - Ronin Edition

Fs player not liking disease,but no mention of poison.

 

OMG this thread was so useful, now it is becoming such a pile of useless sugestions and selfish complaints its mindblowing. Poor Sok.

 

This was more of an oversight than actual intent. I was actually just coming back to suggest the same should be true of acid and poison. They also have the weakness of being completely useless (for disease) and mostly useless (for poison) against creatures with Boon of the Undead. So if there is a change to those two it probably should wait until the Boon of the Undead change. Acid probably should be dealt with now.

 

Sure. But being able to apply the -1 def or inhibit is way more important than not being able to deal with the frequently few relics in the game. Just to remove the perceived factionalism for a bit, it seems like acid should cost a little bit more for the -1 def it applies or have the -1 be removed entirely. (Same for poison and disease, realy.) I would actually prefer a cost change because I appreciate the distinctiveness these abilities bring.

 

Yeah, that is because disease is more to the forefront of my mind than because of any desire for preference. I think acid + disease + poison should all cost more, within the constraints I noted in my previous post.

 

The others are also heavily amplify-able, while Disease can't even reach +50%

 

That gets into questions of how much synergy should "cost" which I don't think there are any really good answers for. For one it punishes/benefits units that are unlikely to ever be in an amp bg (see: Dwarven Brewmaster) for the "synergy surcharge" when the synergy might not be there.

It also ends up being pretty awkward for non-physical attacks of all kinds. Like there is no way to get to 50% psychic amp. There isn't a psychic dot either. Does this mean we need to account for this in how much psychic units cost in general? Amplify Electricity does not even exist. Discount for Jolt?

These both seem to be bad ideas, and when determining costs, we should be looking at what the ability does on its own. Synergy should be accounted for in the design process.

 

How would you like us to discuss inconsistencies in ability costing?

 

With the map changes and the general toning down of KF does anyone still feel that the KF bonus needs changing?

(Try to ignore invested positions and general polltroy hate when answering if possible)

 

Yes, because frankly the whole speed of the game has toned down, and while the draw win are less of a problem, KF bonus still provides a huge advantage when it comes to: ability to reinforce fights; ability to constantly move and attack; huge threat range (which also has to do with the +AP cap thing).

Edit: its funny how gullible Pox players are (maybe because most of the new players are younger, but still) - as soon as people start using less of the faction, people suddenly think they are not a problem anymore. It has been this way with KF (Ive seen a decline in people running it), and with drakkies. Im not saying there is a hidden agenda for people saying "wow, they are calling nerfs on our faction, lets stop playing it for a while until the dust settles", but I sure wouldnt doubt if people acctually do that. Also, what could happen is since they are expecting nerfs, they are playing something else just so they dont get severly handicapped when the nerf does hit. But the problem really isnt gone, at all.

 

Get rid of the bonus. Those champs that are meant to be speedy (or need it to be run) should get +1 speed with the appropriate cost increase. It will finally open up some design space.

 

For CD consistency what you guys think about Pounce still on cd2 ? yeah is not a real AOE effect(you can hit1,2,3 or in a really bad positioning way 4 champs) but is still uncounterable (you can't avoid it with block or reflexes and doesn't count as a basic attack)

 

I don't think that its out of line because you also need to reposition your champ into the frontline. The cone stuff was problematic because of its super range and the kiting possibilities it gave.
I also don't know a champ with pounce on it that people do complain about. (As a indicator if something feels unbalanced for the playerbase or not)

 

I am not sold to cost balancing abillities relative to each other. Why do you think that rabid/acid/poison need a nerf? Which units do you think are too strong with those abillities?

Because if the answer is "I don't know" or "none", then maybe the nerf is not really warranted, apart from pretending that "balance was achieved".

Which is why I oppose niche nerfs to barely-used units/abillities. Don't nerf what's not broken.

 

Because dot + status effect is stronger than dot with no status effect? If we are not going to have consistency in costing abilities relative to each other than why have ability costing at all?

 

What does it matter if they are stronger, if they aren't used?

Bond of vashal is quite insane, probably stronger than many other defensive spells, but you're not talking about it.

Disintegrate kills a relic and gives the casting player a relic they can change into a champ for ap. It's stronger than most other spells that destroy relics, but you're not talking about them.



I don't buy the "x is stronger, therefore it needs nerf". I think we should have more balancing of themes/champions and less balancing abillity costs.

 

So because I am not talking about all the balance issues I should talk about none of the balance issues. Got it. Fine. I am out.

 

The problem I see with your reasoning, is that it implies that champions with scour are automatically better than champions with other dots (or champions with rabid, or whatever), which is most of the time not true, their effectiveness is based solely on the champions it is put on. If you look at champions with dots, for the most part champions with scour are not better than champions with burn or with rabid. Their effectiveness is based on other things (mostly range and cost/other abillities) and I fail to see how poison/rabid/scour create any imbalance.

It is hard for me to take your issue seriously, when most champions with acid bomb are not used or shoebox (same issue, simply better than fire bomb etc), while caverunner is still one of better UD champions, and best harassers in the game.

This is an asymmetric game and shouldn't strive to have symmetrical balance either.

 

On the other hand: https://poxbase.com/ability/659

 

Team is weird since it's actually a 26n ability. I never got why that was done that way.