Calling all IS Players

Discussion in 'Ironfist Stronghold' started by Pixyrus, Apr 20, 2015.

  1. Lushiris

    Lushiris I need me some PIE!

    Where do you see stat costs? Are you sure 3 def is only 6 nora? Stat information would make a firking happy Poxxer.

    The practical advantages of tough over defense:

    Strike ignores def, Tough remains unscathed - this applies to any damage ability that ignores def*;

    Sunder/Cripple can't touch Tough;

    Tough reduces AoE champion damage, AKA Auras(including Deafening), Cones, Pings, Bolt Abilities, Novas, Poison Cloud, and several others;

    Tough reduces Spell damage*.

    *And as a side note for Fist of Bastion, that means that with tough 3, resilient and IS FF bonus you need to deal at least 13 spell damage to have him take 4 damage. And with 2 base def and the same upgrades it means that a champion needs to have at least 10 damage to deal a minimum of 4 damage to Fist, remember I'm not adding any buffs.

    As for the advantages of defense over Tough:

    Loss of Life attacks ignore tough( and any damage mitigation abilities), but defense still works against them.
  2. Dresnar20365988

    Dresnar20365988 Devotee of the Blood Owl

    IS sucks right now. The faction has been overnerfed.

    The theme that was buffed is barely playable.

    IS is in the worst shape it's been in in a very long time.

    Currently is the worst faction in the game with the fewest meta builds.
  3. mw24

    mw24 I need me some PIE!

    yes it is only slightly better not 250% better as it is costed.
  4. mw24

    mw24 I need me some PIE!

    poxbase. Yes tough has advantages but they are mostly situational and in most matchups there is little difference between tough and defense.

    tough 3 is 15 nora, def bonus 3 is 6 nora. tough 2 at 10 nora has about the same usefulness as def bonus 3 at 6 nora. tough is overcosted.
  5. darklord48

    darklord48 Forum Royalty

    I would take Tough 2 at 10 nora over Def 3 at 6 nora any day. The reduction in DoT damage alone makes me feel it is worth it.
  6. mw24

    mw24 I need me some PIE!

    if your opponent is not using dot 3 def would be generally stronger and at 4 less nora. Dot dmg isn't common in all bgs.

    it is just simple math. Tough being 5 nora while def is 2 nora does not make sense, and I think def is costed properly.
  7. KingJad

    KingJad I need me some PIE!

    I don't... +3 defense is certainly worth more than 6 nora.
  8. darklord48

    darklord48 Forum Royalty

    Tough 2 mitigates 5/6 damage dealt by DoT 1, 7/10 damage dealt by DoT 2, 9/15 damage dealt by DoT 3, plus 2 damage from each base attack. DEF 3 mitigates 3 damage per base attack. Assuming your opponent attacks one every round, you mitigate 6 damage with tough 2 compared to 3 with DEF 3. If they attack twice, tough 2 mitigates 8 compared to DEF 3 mitigating 6.
  9. mw24

    mw24 I need me some PIE!

    that is situational though, most damage is from basic attacks and targeted abilities. Tough was fine before its cost was increased. Bouncer being manually modified like -15 nora and glitched 2 turn ride down were the problems, not tough.
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2015
  10. Lushiris

    Lushiris I need me some PIE!

    Ohhh, no man. The def bonus ability has a different cost, for sure - the base stat costs more, trust me. There's a couple of champions that evidence the cost, let me find them and I'll reply.

    Emerald Wing has been recently changed, but with the help of Poxbase's changelog (thanks @Nea !) and obviously Poxnora checklist(thanks DOGz!) I'll be able to make the comparison I had made back then:

    Emerald Wing: 84 Nora, 10 dmg, 6 spd, 0 def, 45 HP - 61 nora without abilities;

    Grintmaw Flamehurler: 61 Nora, 10 dmg, 6 spd, 1 def, 45 HP - 57 nora without abilities.

    So, we can be sure that from 0 to 1 values defense costs 4 nora, and the chance of having it scale on higher values isn't low.
    If def was so cheap, champions with 3 def wouldn't be so strangely expensive(except for bouncer, he defies all #poxlogic).

    Disclaimer: Although Emerald Wing has been changed, his old stats still are reliable for calculation and comparison, since the algorithm was not changed and he did not suffer a manual cost adjustment.
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2015
  11. mw24

    mw24 I need me some PIE!

    I am looking at poxbase and nefari guardian. I am talking about stat bonus def not base defense.
  12. Lushiris

    Lushiris I need me some PIE!

    Ohhhh I see. Anyways that was educational, at least for me lol.

    There's no way I can't agree with you on this one, 6 nora is way too little for 3 def, this must go up; but I still say tough is certainly properly costed - maybe we could try a reduction of 1 nora per rank in the future, but I do think it's ok for now.
  13. mw24

    mw24 I need me some PIE!

    I think the def bonus price is ok, I just think that many other abilities are way overcosted including tough.

    This is why meta is spamming 60 nora champs or myx drones. many abilities and stats past a certain point cost way too much nora.
  14. Lushiris

    Lushiris I need me some PIE!

    Well man, you're contradicting yourself by defending an overly cheap ability and saying other things are overcosted while complaining about too much cheap meat.

    The problem with drones is that they're free, and fw cheap stuff is just perfectly efficient, as in "screw flavor this has to be cheap".

    Sadly people think that discussing with me is a bad idea because I'm overly annoying when I'm right but humble as firk when I'm wrong, and that discourages some guys to try and annoy me with bs.

    Overefficiency in Pox is a plague, but most still are ok with it as long is it's in their BG.
  15. mw24

    mw24 I need me some PIE!

    cheap champs aren't the problem.(most of the time, stuff like drones and stitched are an exception) The problem is champs that cost way too much in comparison because of their abilities and extra stats costing a lot more nora than they should.

    Often times it isn't hard to kill a champ, all those extra abilities and stats in most cases don't really help that much because your champ will still die. This will set you back the extra nora you spent on it, lose a font contestor/engager, and give your opponent a bigger nora globe. More expensive champs aren't run for the most part because many abilities aren't efficiently costed or just bad and most of the time it is just better to get cheap hp, positioning, font contestors, and dmg on the field.
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2015
  16. Lushiris

    Lushiris I need me some PIE!

    I really don't think that making those champions cheaper will make them tankier. I remember back before revamp, when they announced something like "we are lowering overall champion damage, champions won't be as easily 1 turnable", a manly tear ran through my eye. Sadly I don't think that promise was fulfilled, because as I see it the vast amount and easy access to very high damage mechanics and instant kills is what makes tanks feel useless sometimes, not their capability of tanking.

    People may think I hate FW, but that's not the case; my problem with it is that I feel it could've been something much cooler than it is without resorting to these "counter" mechanics, such as LoL, soulstrike and Doom. I think this game tried to counter things like superchamps and impervious the wrong way, and now we have something that can't be countered, so what do we do? Make FW's champs horrible. When it gets a little good what happens? Someone gets PBM with it.

    So to resume, the problem isn't that tanks are too expensive, but damage dealing forms have been so banalized that people feel their theme sucks if it doesn't have an instakill.
  17. mw24

    mw24 I need me some PIE!

    I don't think loss of life is too much of an issue, I don't even run soulreave anymore its usually not very helpful with IS angel being less op now and IS not being popular. For stuff like kain taris or perseverance I use tome of hate but I am not a huge fan of tome because it does the same damage to both sides champs. I think soulstrike is fine even though the only good soulstrike champ is in ff kf. I think elsari reaper sucks and reaper's blade is just ok but not good at the moment because of expensive hard to kill champs not being run much. Doom should be reworked even though I don't really like to use it in anything other than stealth/ghost cheese stalling bg.

    I don't think all expensive champs need to be tankier, I just think they need to be more efficient and be worth their cost compared to cheaper runes. Many sandbags need to be removed, and abilities recosted. Stats the penalty for stacking stats on a single unit is also too great. Half the reason lich king is so ridiculously overcosted is because it has 7 speed 2 def versus having 0 def and 6 speed that would greatly lower its cost. Xulos is similar with it having 2-5 range for no apparent reason.

    The main reason fw is strong at the moment is because of martyr, dusk creeper, and dark familiar combined with other factions having their previously op range options nerfed heavily.
  18. Lushiris

    Lushiris I need me some PIE!

    I'm pretty sure reaper's blade is auto in any FW BG, I always see it in any FW game, which is the majority of the games right now, not forgetting ED either. And I also forgot to specify defiling, disease and specially rotting blows which costs 3 nora for a 8 turn debuff. It's all part of a whole "counter theme" that will always be there, weak champions or not. I can't forget to mention Desecration, one of the best damage and anti-relic spells in the game if you compare the cost/damage/AoE/cooldown with other spells.

    The solution is not making everything more efficient, this has been done for too many years and look where we are again. We should stop buffing, power hasn't been an issue for quite some time now, the problem is that there is way too much damage.

    I remember that back then games could last for hours, now with a few moves you can kill several champions and decide a match. If this is what people want so be it, but the number of players tells me otherwise.
  19. mw24

    mw24 I need me some PIE!

    I think if you need something dead shadowshank+dusk creeper would generally be a better solution than reapers blade in ff FW. I don't use either though because most things aren't that difficult to kill. talgar(ff IS) isn't run as much anymore and a lot of unkillable super champs like angels and bouncer(even tyrant) have been nerfed.

    disease is fine(burn and frost need a buff) but dead fairy is pretty strong, maybe slightly too strong. decaying blows is a nice counter to healing but honestly most of the time its not very good. I never deploy it to purposely stop healing unless I am playing against reconstitute. cleansing, tough, resilient, and a few other things counter these(too bad tough and resilient cost so much lel)

    Essence drain is good, possibly too strong but it isn't much different than spells like hammer strike, mind slicer boomerang, mindstorm, pygmy hippo stampede, psychic blast, quickening, etc. It isn't as strong atm with cheap meat being most of the meta.

    I don't think all champs should be more efficient I just think that the way to expand what is considered meta would be to improve the champs that are currently more expensive/sandbagged so they would see more play.
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2015
  20. themacca

    themacca Master of Challenges

    Id just like to point out IS has the 3rd most dawn of war points so that statement is wrong, and UD and FW are always #1 and #2 so yeah...

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