Caveat emptor. Warning to new players about trading

Discussion in 'Rune Trading' started by BansheeX, Mar 24, 2014.

  1. BansheeX

    BansheeX I need me some PIE!

    First off. New players cant trade for the first 2 weeks. This is a preventive measure to avoid having new players being ripped off in unfair trades.
    Once your temporary tradeban is lifted, you can engage in trading to get your collection more focused. These tips should help you avoid the worst pitfalls :)

    1. Know the approximate value of what you have and what you are looking for. PoxBox.net is a good place to start in order to get an idea about what things are worth.

    2. Talk to people in the respective forum you want to get runes from. Ask them what runes they would advice you to aim for in order to design or modify your BG.

    3. Beware of the countless: xxx for trade messages in the game lobby. Many of them are made by trade sharks and they will try to get unreasonable profit from you.

    I hope these few tips will be beneficial. Welcome to Pox Nora and good luck with your trading :)

    p.s. Feel free to include your own veteran tips to help protect new traders :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2014
  2. Burcho

    Burcho I need me some PIE!

    Value of a rune is a combination of
    • ** rarity of a rune **
      top: limited editions as there are no new copies being created. Some were only available for a very short time/expensive (harbingers, fan faire, polymorph, special skins, giving trees)
      second: legendary runes as these are the most expensive to forge and are not guaranteed in packs or boxes
      third: runes from the current expansion, not forgable
      then: the rest core expansion runes are cheaper in the forge than extended expansion runes (shards value is 2 times lower in the same rarity)
      (core releases: poxnora release set, savage tundra expansion, shattered peaks expansion, drums of war, skeezick rebellion and Grimlics descent)

    • ** usability of a rune **
      the better a rune is, the higher the price !in relation to the other runes with the same rarity!

    • ** the popularity of a rune/faction **
      UD is expensive as there were many UD players (the only starting battlegroup for a long time was UD). SP has always been less played and thus cheaper.

    Shard values:
    Rarity Core/Extented sacrifice forge
    common_________core__________2_______4
    common________extended_______ 4_______8
    uncommon_______core__________4_______8
    uncommon______extended______ 8_______16
    rare_____________core_________20_______40
    rare____________extended______ 40_______80
    exotic ___________core_________100_____250
    exotic__________extended_______ 200_____500
    legendary________core__________ 150_____400
    legendary_______extended_______ 300_____800

    You can check the shards worth of your rune in the forge.
    You can check for a relative worth of your rune in one of the traders (poxbox or poxpoints). If something is out of stock in poxbox, it probably is regarded as more valuable than what poxbox would offer.

    New players should unlock the free decks first as some of them are very good and contain runes that would be difficult to trade for by a fresh player. Unlocking the achievements and playing skirmishes and pvp games will earn you core runes.
    If you want your own runes I suggest you save gold and then buy an extended box. The value of the packs in the box is lower than buying the packs directly + you have a guaranteed exotic. The shards value is at least 100% higher for only 70% more gold compared to the core packs/boxes.
    If you look to switch one bg for another without much trade fodder, I would suggest you use the trader ingame (beware of sharks!), ask around ingame and on the trader forum and check existing runepools:
    SL has one (http://forums.poxnora.com/index.php?threads/sl-rune-pool.928/),
    KTCOAP has one (http://forums.poxnora.com/index.php?threads/rune-pool.514/), ...)(inactive)
    my 1:1 core or legendary trades (http://forums.poxnora.com/index.php?threads/1-1-core-exo-legendary-trades.8323/
    Pox Academy guild also has a rune pool for guild members. https://www.poxnora.com/guilds/home.do?g=3229&fb=

    If you then look for a specific rune and you have some trade fodder, I would suggest poxbox (http://olaf.maxapex.com/apex/f?p=286:1:15552598194001::NO) or poxpoints (https://poxpoints.azurewebsites.net/) as they are instant traders.

    *Using a trader to create profit*
    1) Take out the runes which cost the least credits per shard, sacrifice them and forge runes with a better value.
    2) Take out runes that are heavily stocked and are discounted because of that. All runes have a base value, the more stock there is, the more the actual value drops below the base value. At 51 runes in stock, the value is only 10% of the original value. When the poxbox stock is lower/price is higher, you can trade in the same rune and receive more credits than you paid to take the rune out. In the past the discount was mentioned with each rune, this is no longer the case and this will make this stock market play more difficult. At the moment the amount in stock is no longer visible and this is harder to do.
    3) BEWARE: only accept "decondor" 's offers. There have been accounts made (fe "decondor3" to make scam offers)

    If you want to be a trader, I suggest you gather some fodder and work your way up to the hard to get runes. Once you have some legendaries, limiteds you can trade those for other leg/LE + profit. You use the profit to get more LEG/LE. Believe me, playing is more fun than trading! You need to collect the runes others want without paying too much sweets (high poxbox value rares mostly; sometimes tickets or large amounts of (un)commons)

    *edit: added some info and probably will add more later
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2015
  3. BansheeX

    BansheeX I need me some PIE!

    Thanks for contributing Burcho :)
     
  4. Senshu

    Senshu Administrator Desert Owl Games

    Great introductory thread to trading. Continue to update it :D
     
    SaintKiwi likes this.
  5. Intweener

    Intweener I need me some PIE!

    I guess I will put in my 50 cents as well.

    First thing you have to know as a beginning player/experienced player is that you can safely assume 95% of all trades in the trading place are trying to rip you off. This sounds quite negative, but just like in any trading card game it's true. Trading online is anonimous, so many people do not feel shame for their bad acts. As they will never be punished for it on a personal level and they will never meet their victims in real life.

    Uptrading / Downtrading.
    It's an unwritten rule, that EVERYONE should know :
    You should in theory be receiving more crappy cards for your valuable cards (I.E overbid), And if you want a high valued card, you should offer overbid of lower tiered cards.
    If you WANT a card, you bid more. (Be careful not to be too generous to merchants)
    If you DONT NEED a card, you don't have to overbid.
    It sounds simple, but if you spot any trade that isn't like this, be sure to stay VIGILANT!

    (This is also the reason why Poxbox rarely has superhigh tiered cards in their stock. As uptrading is worth the cost!)

    Unfortunately almost any player will pretend they are the downtrader. So they expect you to trade more value in cards for any of theirs (so even if you have an angel and they have a voodoo shamfie, in extreme theory). This harms the community and fortunately there are rune pools to minimize the damage merchants can do. But unfortunately people get ripped off still every day.


    What makes cards valuable?
    It's tricky to just put this in instantly, but i'll give it a shot. This whole post is on the fly anyway :)
    - Availability (Can the card still be obtained? If not, the price goes up. Collectors often look for these limited edition cards.
    - 'META' playability. The value of cards are defined by how many currently play the actual card. Values also goes up when a card if played twice in a battlegroup.
    - Playability. Can the card be used in many decks? Is it even better to add twice in a deck?You guessed it, price goes up!
    - Auto-includes. These are kind of odd cards. They are insanely strong , but dont often match the theme, or the deck idea. They're simply too strong not to include. Think of the angels, '150k' runes etc.



    There are four kinds of traders :

    The Meta Snipers - These guys try to obtain all most current playable cards and either play with them or merch them for high profits as the cards are in high demand. Don't be surprised you'll have to sacrifice an arm and a leg for META cards. The upside is that you'll be able to play with the best available cards in the Battlegrounds.
    These traders are also people who are best informed about what could possibly go up and down in value over time!
    The 'Timmy's' - Yes it's a ripoff from Magic the Gathering I know :p. The timmy's are the ones who just want to play a certain thing and are willing to offer fair prices for your cards. Always stay vigilant though! Many Timmy's are gullible, so be nice enough to tell timmy's they overbid for their cards. Or else they will become the next generation of jerks.
    The Hoarders / Collectors - This group can be devided in the most fun and the most unlikeable people in the poxnora realm. The fun hoarders collect fun cards like Magma Bunnies , Polymorphs and many other low valued cards, just for fun's sake. If you do have magma bunnies, you can expect some unexpected value for them if you encounter a hoarder :). These are also the people that often don't play with the cards they hoard, which can be harmful to the game in a sense. (Polymorph is a good example of this.)
    The Merchants Jerks - Unfortunately for everyone this is the most annoying (and seemingly biggest) group of all. They think about one thing : Profit. Often you can't even expect a social talk with them. Just as long as you overbid over the cards they have, they will 'happily' accept and brag about how they scammed some noob to their merchant friends.

    Here is how you identify a Merchant :
    (on rune trader and in the client. Not in the forums though! I have never traded through the forums. )

    - Has +- 10 trades in a row, with useless text or uses awful shorthanding like "w/ list " or something just "a aa aaa" variants.
    - Has a low valued card in trade and expects something better. Often shorthanded by "LF Bunny Lord" (And offers a magma bunny)
    - Has often a list of the most valuable cards in their wishlist. Occasionally he even expects you to offer double the value of the card you may be looking for.
    - These are the people that are often spamming in the Poxnora client with lots of cards.
    - Uses the word "overbid"
    - Either tries too hard to be your friend or the complete opposite.


    How to counter a merchant?
    Unfortunately It's very hard to counter merchants. As their scams occasionally work they won't stop doing it.
    Here are some useful tips for the nicer people amongt us.
    - Learn to say NO! If the cost is too high, just say no. Don't let a merchant guilt trip you. 99 out of 100 times you'll end up with regret otherwise.
    - Realize that the best way to cope with a merchant is to reflect their behavior , so that they perhaps in the future adapt it.
    - In the best case trade scenario both parties are happy with a trade. In case of merchants the best case scenario is both being glad they didn't lose or the other profited too much.
    - Do not fall for the "I got to go soon, please accept soon!!" scam. This is often a tactic used by the ones that abuse time to get their best profits. They hope you skip the rational thinking part of the trade and BAM, gone is your harbinger and say hi to your new magma bunny and oceans of worthless regret.
    - I know this may be a bit mean.. but tell your friends about the people that want to rip you off too excessively. This prevents a lot of scams. There is nothing stronger than honest negative mouth to mouth information.


    Be fair though. Everyone does want to profit a little from a trade they make. But if the person doesn't seem to have the decency to talk polite, or asks the world for their magma bunny. Do not be afraid to teach them some manners.

    Poxbox.

    Well it's hard to get around Poxbox.net really. So I'll explain a little how to best use Poxbox, and what the long list of cards can tell you so that you won't be ripped off while checking it.
    - Poxbox is quite fair in pricing. Lots of points can be made, and only Poxnora updates can truly influence the prices of runes.
    - Players will always ask more than the 10% you have to sacrifice for Poxbox. If they don't, then you have a decent guy on the other side!
    - The more of the same amount of cards are in Poxbox , the more their value drops. In the past Poxbox showed how much it dropped, but that has been removed recently. The values of cards will adjust over time to their actual value. Because to Poxbox, just like a casino, the house always wins in the end, especially when the amount of trades increases :)
    - When there isn't a certain card present in Poxbox, it means that the value of the card is most probably higher than shown!! I cannot stress this enough, as most merchants are aware of this and this is where they get their main profits, aside from Timmy's.
    - Perhaps sometimes you can profit a little from runeforging cards and combining it with poxbox, but often Poxbox is a cheaper way to go.



    I'll be honest. I used to have a .. dark period in my early Poxnora days. Even though I wasn't amongst the worst of people around, as I always made sure BOTH parties were happy, I still could have done things differently. But I'm mainly saying this to let you know that everything here above is from being both a profiter and a victim.
    Sometimes I still regret it. Sometimes I'm still proud about it.
    But lately I have enough cards to give a few away.

    I hope you, dear reader, hopefully a timmy, find all of this useful. :)

    @BansheeX Feel free to take over this post partially, or completely as this is your sticky. :)
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2014
  6. GabrielQ

    GabrielQ I need me some PIE!

    FAQ

    q)Which value should I use when looking at the price in a store?

    a) it's not important which one do you use as longs as is the same for the runes you are comparing, usually the IN values is used because runes that are out of stock are also defined this way. Also, when someone says "I want x amount of PB points" you have to provide that in IN values. Note that runes that are usually out of stock have a higher value than the one noted in poxbox.net or other sites, because they are popular or some other reasons.

    q) What are "sweets"?

    a) Sweets is a term for additional for a otherwise fair trade, let's put it this way, I have X exotic that you want, and you Y exotic with the same value, but I'm not interested in Y more than I'm interested in X, so you throw a couple rares to convince me of trading with you, so you get the rune you wanted and I get a rune with the same value and a couple rares. This can be also replaced with messages like "LF for 20% profit" that are more specific but share the same purpose.

    q) What do trades without description mean?

    a) Usually those trades are set up with a post in the forums or they are made by a player that is just making public he has that rune. It's a common practice of trade sharks also, try not to bother bidding on that kind of trades, neither in those that are a lot of trades by the same person of different runes with the same wish list. It's better to ask in the client or post in the forums to get a quicker and fairer trade.
     
    ghklf and Anima26 like this.
  7. RedScarlet

    RedScarlet I need me some PIE!

    I'm not so sure, but my active experience in Pox's economy and the quotation on Poxbox, TCGBay, hedging methods, and other 2nd hand markets (5 years) is:

    A non-merchant: 0% profit, if fair, probably uses IN Value
    A fair merchant: 5%>x<10% profit on a trade (Acceptable)
    A professional/killer merchant: 10%>x<20% profit on a trade (Beware)

    [LEs like doomies or harbies have different cost model than other runes, and cannot be justified just by a 10-20% profit. I wouldn't want to trade any harbs/doomies for 15,000 magma bunnies, knowing I can't get any doomies/harbies after I trade it to you for 15k magma bunnies]


    And take into account on NOT the current trend of rune usage, but the FUTURE trend of rune usage.

    And keep in mind, merchants do not have the urgency of needing that rune as they are only seeking profit unlike its clients. So keep in mind that it is a service kind of thing. He doesn't necessarily have to trade it for you, but you kind of need those runes whereas no other trades have it. Thus, justifying the profit-taking service.

    E.g,
    Augur of the Deep was OOS for quite some time (1-2months), and after DOGz acquisition, Augur of the Deep was in stock for 7-8 runes in the first 2 months (Feb2014). Now, its quite hard to find Augur of the Deep. Its going back to the way it was, until the revamp hits.


    So to price Augur of the Deep, merchants would upgrade the price (on OutOfStock runes vs non-OOS runes, I'd give +10% premium), if ever what you are offering is in-stock and (through a subjective analysis of the market trend), in the longer-term would STILL be in stock.

    Its all subjective. He might forecast Augur of the Deep to be high-in-demand in the longer run, while yours to not be so prospectively high-in-demand in the longer run, despite similar price.

    Fair merchants would be able to defend his position as to why he think that his runes would cost more than what is listed (its Fair Value).

    Bad merchants would not care and would give you a "take it or leave it" stance if you show a hint of urgency for the runes.

    Killer merchants would dwindle their way and defend his position using fictional estimates and will give any false info to justify the trade despite its a Magma Bunny vs Harbringer.
     
    ghklf and Anima26 like this.
  8. Xirone

    Xirone I need me some PIE!

    Keep in mind that all champions are changing and so if you really like Rune X because it has Abilities A, B, and C, things may change. Trading for certain runes may be riskier than normal right now. Certain runes may end up really popular, which aren't right now, and popular runes may be less so.
     
    Ragic likes this.
  9. darklord48

    darklord48 Forum Royalty

    That's why I'm diversifying, try to get more stuff I don't have instead of a few more of stuff I do have.
     
  10. Gaedel

    Gaedel I need me some PIE!

    Thank you all for this post. I have been a victim, but never a victimizer. I hope this helps the new player as finding out you were ripped off is very discouraging and harmful to the game. Some people will just leave and not come back. The sharks don't care, they are just looking for the next one to victimize. I hope those of you veterans will let us know in the client when a shark comments about trades, just so we are aware.
     
  11. Anima26

    Anima26 I need me some PIE!

    +1 for this, some fantastic information for new players or just people that are new to trading.
     
  12. Burcho

    Burcho I need me some PIE!

    update my post to include legendary forging and poxpoints as an instant trader
     

Share This Page