changes needed to make shrine rush and mid font rush viable again

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by polltroy, Nov 20, 2017.

  1. polltroy

    polltroy I need me some PIE!

    Any ideas how we can make "surprise" shrine rush come back to the game? What we need to do?

    Also what can we do to make mid font rushing or behind enemy line font rushing viable strategy again, now when maps and movement abilities don't allow this any longer?
     
  2. Etherielin

    Etherielin The Floof Cultist

    1. You have yet to define what "surprise shrine rushing" means.
    2. Backline font rushing is still a thing and the abilities that allowed it still exist.

    I'd appreciate if you could give me specific examples (and I mean as specific as possible) of champions, spells and abilities you cannot use anymore to do these.
     
  3. polltroy

    polltroy I need me some PIE!

    1. you play "normal" fight and mid game you go for a rush strategy, maybe 2/3 of yoru games you win or lose without even trying to do rush, but 1/3 or so you try rush

    2. lots of maps were changed and lots of champs to make it almost impossible to take mid font 1 turn early, you can read a lot in forum about this. Abut back font taking, im thinking mainly about wizard of the ways nerf etc.
     
  4. Etherielin

    Etherielin The Floof Cultist

    1. That's still an option, but in order to do so you need either range or extra numbers.
    2. There are still champs, who can do that - Ranger Elite is one of them.
     
  5. polltroy

    polltroy I need me some PIE!

    1. what you mean is u can nag on shrine while u have lead or u can even go for a shrine kill if u are already leading. What I talk about is to go from a balanced position or even from a disadvantage position mid game into trying a smart rush and maybe making a win.

    2. in most cases impossible since how the maps are
     
  6. limone1981

    limone1981 I need me some PIE!

    maps were changed in a good way...and they were changed not for shrine rush decks but because were imbalanced in favor of player 1.

    again if your strategy was relying only on bugs and imbalanced stuff this is no game for you
     
  7. polltroy

    polltroy I need me some PIE!

    they were changed to make speed/movement less important... to make game a kill/deploy in eternity game
     
  8. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Re: 2:

    To clarify, you are talking about things like 8 SPD Flyers that can be deployed first turn and capture mid font before your opponent can get there?

    Most people dislike this type of thing because they feel it gives one player a large advantage out of the opening based on randomness (draw), can you explain why you feel this type of design is good for the game?
     
  9. polltroy

    polltroy I need me some PIE!

    I can explain why I think games like portal nexus (wizard of the ways) is good for the game. Because it gave on several maps very interesting variations of games, while due to its high nora investment, usually did not pay off and did not give a win. Same with some high speed rushing to first font or side fonts, it can give interesting variations to games.

    Same about rush decks if not "abuse" rush, that is rush that is mixed with normal play. It gives nice interesting variations to play, gives the opponent this surprise win or lose, also gies a lot of excitement while you plan for it maybe for a few turns and then may or may not succeed based on some small margins.
     
  10. polltroy

    polltroy I need me some PIE!

    what I try to say is, use nora cost and other numbers more to control OP parts of game, don't try to take away some interesting variations of gamestyles, not everyone likes 30+ min games where all is about who can calculate how to make that 1 kill per turn or not..

    ... some people like me prefer to win or lose sometimes bu surprise tactics, not just by chess planning. Chess is a great game, but that's not what I (and many others) like in pox.
     
  11. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    You specifically claimed in this thread that you want to help MID font rushing and taking it one turn early.

    This doesn't sound like "first or side font."

    Can you explain how taking mid font without the opponent having a chance to respond is an "interesting variation" instead of just one side starting with a disadvantage?

    (Note, you can still do this actually, except now you have to invest nora into it, say, casting a spell that gives AP. What got removed was things like 8 SPD flyers, which was able to do this without spending additional nora and because the nora spent on having 8 SPD is beneficial to the champion throughout the rest of the game. In some ways, this is exactly what you suggested, we removed the thing that was too efficient, and still kept the strategy, but it costs more to execute now.)

    Can you also explain why Portal Nexus (which was basically a dice roll) is "interesting variation" instead of just "gambling?" Isn't it just largely "sometimes you get a huge advantage and sometimes you don't?" What interesting decision was involved in using Portal Nexus other than pressing the button?

    Do you want to play a game of Pox that ends up in 30 seconds by flipping a coin? Is that an interesting variation as well?
     
    nepyonisdead likes this.
  12. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    You are honestly the first person who has made an argument for wanting draw wins as an "interesting variation."

    I do agree with you that there's probably a market for that kind of game (maybe Hearthstone fits the bill since it embraces randomness?), but Pox has never really been about that (one of the first changes made was to remove the random miss/hit chance) so I don't think you should be surprised by the more recent changes in this arena - this isn't really a recent thing.
     
  13. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY I need me some PIE!

    Shrine killing should be an option, shrine rushing... Not so much. Stealth needs be reworked as well. perm stealth is really stupid imo
     
  14. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY I need me some PIE!

    A little randomness is actually good. Calculating everything IS anti fun as you point out, and having a random clause punishes calculating.

    Randomess on the scale of drawing a card and winning isn't fun
     
  15. Vote Kanye 2020

    Vote Kanye 2020 Better-Known Member

    Name one time where shrine rushing decks haven't been a problem or a broken mechanic thats got nerfed within a month. Then please explain as to why you think bringing it back will be any different.
     
  16. polltroy

    polltroy I need me some PIE!


    So portal nexus had like 25% of getting the font you wanted, and 50% of getting a good font, and rest just one of your own. This for some 80-90 nora. Even if you got lucky usually enemy captured back font a few turns later and you did not even take enough nora to justify the move. it was a funny surprise move and it was fun to play with it and against it, as it allowed very specific strategies and games that were different each time. It rarely lead to lots of wins. Maybe at that time 1 game per 300 or so in ranked included a portal nexus move, so it was hardly OP.

    If pox is all about planning, not about randomness, how come we can not decide in what order our deck is set out? How come we cant see all opponents runes, the ones drawn and the ones concealed? If you wanted a chess style game, start with thinking about how to fix the randomness about runes!!! And don't tell me its calculated randomness. Because that's exactly what portal nexus is and was about.

    Now for the new find I made today. (and this is just hilarious!!!). Wavecrusher (!!!!!!). This rune is made in one sole purpose. To give a random super advantage if there are some fonts near or in water. Just exactly like portal nexus, but the randomness is about if you draw this rune early and what map you get! So even more randomness than portal nexus. And this rune is some 40-ish nora, not like 85-95ish....
    So all the moral talk about chess and randomness and how this surprise was bad, it was just nonsense and in fact this function was just not in your favourite faction??? or how you explain and justify this?

    And on a side note. Ever since portal nexus was "killed" I don't think I have seen a single game with a wizard of the way rune used. if you did not like this rune, why did you leave it in the game even? I have prob played 1500 ranked games since that or so... I try to recall and I think maybe maybe there was one game with a nerfed wizard of the ways.
     
  17. polltroy

    polltroy I need me some PIE!

    Actually Im not against that you took away some of those 8 speed flyers or some of those 9 or 10 space movers. (if you did I have not checked so carefull). but what I don't like is that you made almost every map a "mid font" map. Where the whole game is about a mid font that is always reached in time by both players to never be captured until the game is over already by the one-champ-per-turn-killing determines a winner.[/QUOTE]
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2017
  18. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY I need me some PIE!

    @badgerale 's deck, only because I suggested it was a broken problematic shrine rush deck though.
     
  19. polltroy

    polltroy I need me some PIE!

    a lot of shrine rush decks in past that were auto win or sole "shrine rush" based on some weird interactions were not good for game BUT that's not what Im talking about. I talk about how its so so obvious devs together with most posters are in consensus this game is not about killing shrine, shrine and fonts are there just as some background, the main is just to kill champs one by one. And this I feel is booring, and Im sure Im not alone about that, especially with newer players.
     
  20. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY I need me some PIE!

    That is more because the game is not balanced / designed well. The game is designed around key units and mechanics bringing the match to your favor. It is not balanced around deep strategy and tactics, so you rarely see opponents bother to strategically chip away at a shrine. It rarely will help win the game, because the game is more about reacting to your opponent draws than positioning your units if you want to win.

    If units were easily able to kill a shrine, it would pretty much only exist in an extreme state, as the way the game is currently played. You can't an the dev to simply buff the units which cause shrine kills, because it would be either too good or too weak. The only time I see the type of play you are referring to is on the low resource map 1 font. This is because players don't have their normal playstyle develop for the most part when compared with normal maps, and can kite and chip away indefinitely, or all in with the avatar since it is low rush distance and low resources.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2017

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