Could we talk about trimming out some runes?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Andrew Carling, Mar 9, 2018.


Can you tell I am high?

  1. Who is high?

    7 vote(s)
  2. I've never met him before but he seems alright

    2 vote(s)
  1. Andrew Carling

    Andrew Carling I need me some PIE!

    Looking at steam reviews, quite a few people seem to be turned off by the sheer size of this game. In a time where card games are really big, pox should be riding the wave but not a lot is changing.

    I personally love how many runes there are, its one of the things I love about the game and I am sure most vets agree. That being said, I am sure that if we could look at some analytics there are certain runes that next to no one uses and could stand to be cut out. Maybe they are combined, maybe they are reintroduced later, but I think if we want to get more people to get invested it needs to not have such a high bar of entry to play the game.

    -whatever the opposite of tldr is-
    This is the same reason I have had a really hard time getting into shows like Game of Thrones. When I come home after work or on a weekend, I like to sit down and relax. I love Futurama and the Office, ATLAB and Scrubs. They are easy to digest and I don't need to pay attention to have a good time. On the other hand, when I watch GoT I feel like I'm taking a college course and I need to whip out a note book and fire up the wiki page and print out a map to keep track of everything that is going on. It is rewarding to become invested in something so complex, I am after all a long time pox player, but it makes it so hard for new people to become interested in any kind of way when it is so complicated. We have become jaded to that I think, but this game is not easy to learn and basically impossible to master.

    There isn't a lot anyone can do about most aspects of that complexity, and I wouldn't want them to if they could, but I think trimming out some of the less used runes is a great place to start. Also having a clearer single player story and lore maybe, or make it more accessible at least. You can cobble together lore from forum posts and flavor texts and if you happen to do campaigns in the right order and you can read all the dialog without anything glitching out you get a bigger picture but there is a wide world out there waiting to be fleshed out in a meaningful way.
  2. Excalibur95

    Excalibur95 The King of Potatoes

    the number of runes only benefits the game.

    if as you say runes are not being used then they wont be adding to complexity of the game.

    it can be difficult starting out with much to learn, not just every rune, but id rather that and keep the variety.

    i got by without needing to memorise every rune, although some players claim to. my memory is not up to that nor do i believe it is essential to play this game.

    over time you do gain knowledge of some runes.

    the variety and depth and combinations make pox great, it can be a huge draw to keep playing.. almost like you wont get bored or feel you have done everything to do and move on.
  3. Andrew Carling

    Andrew Carling I need me some PIE!

    If they don't add to how complex it is in action they add to the massive mountain of stuff that new people have to look past to get started. That and all the people unwilling to change the formula that hasn't been working for 12 years.
  4. Excalibur95

    Excalibur95 The King of Potatoes

    new players may think they have to learn every rune but its not true. time spent in game reading opposing champions abilities on deploy or in your turn will get you by.

    there are some guides in these forums listing the important runes of each faction you need to be aware of, but thats just a small number.

    i may be for trying new things but deleting runes from the game and peoples collections is not one of them. these suggestions have been made before, with lesser ideas of rune rotations that can be played but no deletions.
  5. Andrew Carling

    Andrew Carling I need me some PIE!

    Thats just it though, the days where you needed to go to a forum for a game are LONG gone. If pox wants to get past a few dozen concurrent players they need to make it so that that you can bust through a few quick fun easy tutorial games, win some dope cards, make a sick deck, and get cracking on pvp or solo without having to look up some mid 2000's barely alive forum tutorial, or dig through all of the cards and stats in the first few games just to get a basic understanding of what is going on and what matters and what is insignificant and what is just a flashy button.

    Its a bigger problem obviously, and memes aside I am not sure that DOG wants to make the game bigger, they seem to not be trying to develop it. I think the game could stand to use some of the very old and outdated runes, I am talking about cutting like 40 maybe out of thousands.
  6. Excalibur95

    Excalibur95 The King of Potatoes

    poxnora will always have a steep learning curve. there is nothing that can be done to change that, its the nature of this game and this type of game.

    deleting 40 cards out of thousands would not make any difference. it would annoy the playerbase though.

    players who do not have a strategy games background will find it even harder to learn. im not talking those simple strategy games in the strategy category on say google play.

    some players would just be better playing snake on their phone. this is a niche gamne and will not appeal to everyone (nowherev near), nor does it try to.

    a background in collectible card games may not help either. some players handle complex games easier. its why say boardgames have complexity ratings.

    you have to want to learn and put in the time and effort to, which is considerable. again this game is not for everyone, some just wont make it.

    plenty games have guides and if you do not want to read through some then the failure is yours.

    tutorial - check (i have no opinion on its effectiveness other than it helped me back in the day, its been so long).

    rune rewards - check (very generous actually)

    deck building - this is actualy an art in itself and could take a long time to come close at being good at. be prepared to lose because your deck is poorly designed, you lack runes or does not match well vs other decks. its trial and error over time. i am still not good at this, you could always copy decks posted to the forums and this has been a succesful way to get right into the game for some.

    solo - easy enough with some basics and cards

    pvp - while you may want to get cracking at pvp right away and you can, i think you mean you want to win enough times to not hate the game and never play it again.. which some do and i nearly did. truth is pvp is very difficult to consistently win at when you first start pox and it may be that way for a long time, depends how much time you put into reading guides, watching players, seeking advice and practicing. there are many elements to pvp that need to be learned, too many variables to get good. its more like a slow progression but only if you stick with it long enough. starting out i lost almost every game i played for a long time.

    my point - there is no fast track way to start pox and consistently win, unless you are one of the lucky few that everything just clicks for them.

    if you are unwilling to read abilities on opponents cards, unwilling or able to memorize the cards abilities what is the point in half playing the game you will fail hard, you will only resent the game because you have no idea what is going on in game, think the player is cheating or the game has many bugs. its not just pox that needs you to learn, many games come with manuals for the purpose. its just that the pox manuals are spread out on the forums. if there was a huge many page manual for pox containing player content, would you even bother to read it? such content would venture into players preferences and opinions anyway, pox is like an open world game, lots of avenues to win.

    everyone has an idea as to why pox is failing and how that could be made better, even me. lots of opinions have been expressed by players.

    dog do not have the resources to implement most of these suggestions, in some cases these ideas have been tried before, the game is barely getting by with its current staff, unfortunately. the few staff are putting time in to keep the game running. i think more should be done for this game but we are told dog are doing what they can.
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2018
  7. bambino

    bambino I need me some PIE!

    while its true the complexity of pox is what makes it great, there can be no denying its also what keeps new players away,
    throwing in the fact that the game doesnt have an adequate combat log, (seriously, hows a player supposed to grow?),
    non functioning pop-ups , (its 2018 bruh) ,not even a chat log. etc. and yes the rune selection is baffling. (big fan of blocks or drafts , especially as introductory value).
    Ok fine ,, players should take the time to learn the game, no doubt, (again this game, a super hard game, does little to help this).
    So it comes down to player putting in the time. Lets be real, if your not eating, breathing pox, forum pox, observing matches, heh, all this stuff, then you wont grow, even for the best players,,, either there in/out, active/onabreak, either way theres no casual poxers,, your in or out!
    now im not saying it isnt/is worth it, pox is great, but consider a player who hasn't been here almsot 10 yrs, a player who doesn't have 1000's of cards to choose from, I mean unless you have nothing else in your life goin on , its a pretty big hill to climb, most players after getting curb stomped a few times (without even knowing why) will just move on, and dl the next f2p game. if I wasnt so vested in pox, at this point , I prolly would.
    you can argue that the loss is theirs, but we all know its ours.
    its known,, and sok has said himself , that too many choices , especially when introducing a game can have a negative effect, , id agree with this .
    again , free drafts or random blocks would be great as introductory value, no stress of db or loss,, just play.
  8. Nastyhobo

    Nastyhobo Devotee of the Blood Owl

    hahahhaha! dude the word your looking for is called Exposition....
  9. chickenpox2

    chickenpox2 I need me some PIE!

    Please remove millennial earthquake it cancer
  10. calisk

    calisk I need me some PIE!

    most..."competitive players" have wanted formatting akin to mtg's blocks for a long time, the collectors don't want there 25 cent limited runes to go down in value.

    collectors pay the bills so collectors win that argument, an here we are, 2000 runes in the pool and nobody playing any more.

    over simplification of a complex number of micro problems that have plagued pox for years, but regardless it's one of the issues imo.
  11. calisk

    calisk I need me some PIE!

    your looking at it wrong, millenial icequake isn't cancer it has cancer.
  12. badgerale

    badgerale Warchief of Wrath

    It should have implemented in some form a long time ago, imo. The devs at the time didn't grasp that nettle as they could have. Gedden also refused a chance to retire a whole lot of runes when DoG took over.

    Now, it could be that the long term rewards are not worth either the effort or the short term disruption (i.e. will there even be a long term?).
  13. soulmilk

    soulmilk I need me some PIE!

    Is there enough players to support 2+ formats?
    Preferably I'd like to see 3 formats, 1 where all runes are allowed, 1 where only old runes are allowed and 1 where only new runes are allowed.
    I don't think Poxnora can currently support 3 formats, however I can see it having 2.
    My biggest concern is that in the "new only format", the pay to win will be hard to overcome.
    It could work if there was other ways to get the newest runes. (Apart from trading.)
  14. calisk

    calisk I need me some PIE!

    the argument was always the player base couldn't support it....then the player base has continued to get smaller and smaller.

    pox has missed 2 boats that likely would of kept pox a float.

    the first was not introducing formatted play early enough, which could of reduced the financial burden of new players to get into the game and drastically reduced the complexity of the game, and could of helped get out of this buff/nerf cycle, don't like gale well don't play the unlimited format...

    the second boat that could of come with a cycled format is resale, the resale naturally comes with cycled formats, it's releasing old runes in a new set to keep it format legal, or releasing whole sets of older runes that work as your base for the format like MTG's old yearly expansions like MTG 2014. the resale aspect of pox is simply untapped currentlly
  15. PoxBot

    PoxBot Well-Known Member

    Anyone who unironically thinks set rotations would help Pox is a brainlet.
  16. calisk

    calisk I need me some PIE!

    would of. nobody thinks anything can help pox now
    PoxBot likes this.
  17. bambino

    bambino I need me some PIE!

    rotations might help,,
    if a proper league was setup,
    -everyweek sets of cards were added and some removed.
    - everyone updating their bg's as the selections change,,, players forced to get creative,
    -points earned from w/l
    -finally a winner,,, prizes being handed down to the top ?% of winners.
    -repeat monthly/bi monthy?
    mtg had a similiar mech,, I enjoyed it.
    fun? not fun? idk. it sounds like a blast to me.
    Free draft (older cards only)
    -click join , get seated
    -each player takes a turn cracking a free pack, pick a card , next, etc until all players have 30 cards (4,6, or 8 player?? )
    -matches are played and a winner is declared,
    -cards are dissolved back into pool,free draft after all, perhaps some gold or shards for the winner/s?
    play again?
    same as free, but using new releases etc, players get prizes and of course keep cards.

    fun? not fun? idk , I would play. would people find these modes so un-enjoyable? I wonder...
    or we can just keep the game the way it is,, I guess.

    In many ways I believe the free draft would be very beneficial to new players.

    but for now ill take the functioning combat log. :)
  18. PoxBot

    PoxBot Well-Known Member

    Strategically targeted boob ads would bring in players like nothing else this game has ever tried.
  19. chickenpox2

    chickenpox2 I need me some PIE!

    They should have brought back tourneys and just make tickets buyable that would have got sales up
  20. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Desert Owl Games

    One thing to keep in mind is that it's always easy to overestimate the impact of your ideas. This isn't a player idea problem, but a general one. It takes many years of experience and designing features to have a realistic idea of what features will do.

    In regards to set rotation and formats, it's really difficult to say what the impact would have been, but it's true that if it was going to be done it had to done earlier in the life cycle of the product to have a realistic impact. In general, it is extremely difficult to change the trajectory of a product after launch, and even harder a few years into the life cycle. So these sort of things generally has to be in the game from the start or introduced early on, when the trend is still rising.

    Another reason it's hard to estimate the impact is that when the product has significant other issues that are limiting the user funnel, changes to the later game experiences matter much, much less.

    The fact is Pox is the kind of game that, for various reasons, loses 9 out of 10 players before they complete the tutorial - so whether set rotations exist or not, it's impacting very few people who ever try the game.

    I plan to do a much bigger post-mortem of Pox someday when it is finally sunset, but my insider's perspective is that most of Pox's problem stem from a lack of a core, coherent vision from the outset, prioritizing the wrong features and updates (such as the FB thing) and the funneling of money/resources away from the product into other ventures that failed. All of these led to a situation where there was never enough development time to fix all the bugs and get things polished enough to where it doesn't turn off people coming in for a peek or to come back.

    That said, there's still a lot to love about Pox, and I will forever be grateful for the opportunities that the game (and those who worked on it) has given me, as well as all the awesome memories I have had playing and interacting with all of you :)

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