Current ST power could do with some trimming.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by GoldTiger, Feb 7, 2017.

  1. GoldTiger

    GoldTiger I need me some PIE!

    I know calisk loves his kento nerf threads and good thing this won't be one of them. On their own kento and bge are fine and its mainly some of the utility that could do with some trimming.

    1. Ferren Snowspinner:
    This thing has been busted for so long I don't know how it didn't receive a CD increase or its power reduced last patch. I'm almost certain this is because all the complaining about this rune is done in-game, it was so blatantly obvious that noone bothered to cry on the forums because they assumed the devs knew. Well I'm here to tell you the thing is silly @Sokolov. Imo it needs a CD increase, just by 1 I think, that way they at least need to run 2 of the shits to have their perma reflex/evasive. Also the tool tip is wrong. Also grant:x reflex/evasive gives you a lower value of the respective ability and costs 3 nora. Not only that but it has CD 2. This thing costs 5 nora and gives both and has CD 1. It should be more expensive than the two added up not less.

    CD increase and cost increase to 7+ would still make the rune viable tbh (thats just me).

    Edit: turns out there are actually other runes with snow shroud wow! and they are all trash and don't deserve to be nerfed (who knew). In this case the issue is 100% with orb of frostfall on base (I thought this was just a 1 off thing like in the good old soe days where there were a few individual champs with their own abilities).

    2. Call of the Tundra.
    Compare it to pygmy hipppo stampede since they are essentially the same thing. Arguements can be made that its hard (you're wrong) to get a double tap with the yeti. It's hard to get 3 charges with the hippos, its the trade off you make for such insane power, if it were the case for both it would be 45/60 nora deal 30 damage. Most often thats the case but sometimes its not.

    Also the yeti stays where as the hippos don't, and deals more damage against anything with armour or tough, is guaranteed to actually deal damage, isn't blocked by terrain, can get the nora globe after, etc.

    I couldn't see PHS being run in any faction other than FS, so perhaps 60 nora is a bit of a hike for CoT. Perhaps 50/55 (pref 55).

    I think kento + prov/bge + keeneye will be way less obnoxious with a snowspinner nerf, and so they don't deserve a nerf on there own (I could be wrong). CoT was just something I noticed that seemed to be extremely poorly costed compared to PHS.
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2017
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  2. calisk

    calisk I need me some PIE!

    cd on the ability could go up mind you not to 7

    cott could get a tweak up, it's worth more if you can double attack with the cott, but it's really not if you can't, but as you said it's not too hard to hit that double hit especially in splits with the likes of arryo
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2017
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  3. Pedeguerra

    Pedeguerra I need me some PIE!

    HHAHAHAHAHAHAH i've seen it all.
    Nerf on Call of the Tundra? hahahah
    You guys never fail to humor me, thats why I cant leave the forums.
    Please, carry on though.
  4. calisk

    calisk I need me some PIE!

    games very different atm, power level of spells are dialed down significantly, and theirs a focus on CC over spot damage for the most part, spells like drain vit are incredibly effective for a very low cost while most spot removal/aoes can costs double to triple that.

    most spot removal requires combo's such as lightning rod + lightning storm + plus some champ that boosts lightning damage. of course this does not apply the big old school power spells but their costs are also up significantly to what they were in the past.

    cott is pretty effecient compared to what other options are around atm, though in the past i'd agree with you, the meta is different atm.

    to give you an instant idea of what the meta is like avalanch is one of the best aoe's currently.
  5. GoldTiger

    GoldTiger I need me some PIE!

    If you've never used pygmy hippos, ill tell you its exceedingly hard to get a consistent 3 hippos on to an opponent if there are any blockers. CoT to me just seems like a better version having dealt with the clunkiness of PHS. Also, you don't have to use CoT if you can't get the double attacks, just as I dont have to use my hippos if I'm not certain ill get the triple hit.

    I asked because it deserves one? And also because the devs don't nerf things unless someone posts on the forums about it.

    Spot damage/removal has been getting a price hike for a while now because it is that valuable in this meta game. Gale, doom, PHS, etc. CoT has been ignored because noone good has been playing ST extensively and actively (as far as I'm aware). Any active player can clearly see that CoT is out of line compared to the rest of the removal in the game and it's time it gets brought in to line.
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  6. calisk

    calisk I need me some PIE!

    well usually a spell is costed relative to how difficult it is to pull off, honestly you are right I've never used pygmy hippos, been on receiving end plenty though. I assume they have somewhat equal issues in reaching their ideal state, but a significant difference is that you usually need 3 of your own champs around to use cott for it's ideal scenario where pygmy hippo can be dropped with 1 unit.

    assuming it's a font battle and you have a decent unit in double attack range, you can drop hippos for 30 damage and likely take that font without naything more then that. same scenario results in half the damage output from a cott.

    now what i'm seeing more and more of in the meta is st/sp splits that use things like arryo to produce 4 units, then combining that with cott for easy double hits, and other tricks in splits that are essentially using cott better then we use it in FF
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  7. super71

    super71 I need me some PIE!

    Yeah I talked about snow shroud when it pretty much came out, people were arguing that scrapper was better when you have to engage to use scrapper. Snow shroud was broken when it came out, hence the nerf to 35%, and it's still pretty bonkers now.

    I don't know what i'm talking about though because my name isn't blue =).

    Jakei pilgrim + any st rune + snow shroud = infinite lols.

    Elemental core + star catalog + snow shroud= was also crazy hard to kill.
  8. Tweek516

    Tweek516 I need me some PIE!

    Game has changed since then, most abilities like this were CD1 and are now CD2.
  9. Braxzee

    Braxzee I need me some PIE!

    Nerfing a champ for a specific combo is silly, the snow spinner is fine where it is at for helping a ferren theme that still needs help.
  10. Braxzee

    Braxzee I need me some PIE!

    Basically you want to nerf BG strategy and luck of the draw
  11. calisk

    calisk I need me some PIE!

    every faction/split has hard to kill combo's though take

    sl titan+morph+horrific mutation

    magnify beast+grundlewulf alpha+demon shield.

    bastion alone

    i mean Bane Shift is tough to kill in pox that's how things go sometimes
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  12. GoldTiger

    GoldTiger I need me some PIE!

    Uhhh I didn't mention any combos. Hence why BGE (keeneye) and kento (providence) shouldnt be nerfed because of their abuse with the mentioned equips. If it was specifically for ferrens sure go for your life. But the matter of the fact is it isn't, and it combos with any and every rune to an over the top state. I'm not sure how anyone can argue against the fact the rune is quite strong and could do with some touch ups to bring it in line with other similar abilities, just like CoT.
  13. Braxzee

    Braxzee I need me some PIE!

    Also hippos puts 15 ap on the board, COT puts 5 ap on one champ and you have to spend 3 ap to get the double attack
  14. Markoth

    Markoth Lord Inquisitor

    Not saying it does need a nerf but this is a poor arguement for saying it does not. Nothing on the Snowspinner pushes it torwards being used in a Ferren deck other than it being one itself. If Snow Shroud had a clause that allowed it to only target units with the same Race then you would be correct. Again, I am not indicating that this is how it should work, just saying that you cannot ignore a combo if it is too strong because different combos are not too strong. You just have to find ways to nerf it without removing its viability in the situations where it isnt problematic. Sometimes that isnt possible and collateral nerfs are unavoidable.

    Personally I dont think Shroud needs CD 2 or a nerf at all. I think the problem is that spinner has Orb which means that you pretty much bypass the secondary clause about needing snow. It just ties thing up into too neat of a package.

    If it was up to me I would just add a clause that if the champion is no longer occupying Snow the effect is removed so if you can create terrain under them or knock them out of Orb range you can kill them.
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  15. GoldTiger

    GoldTiger I need me some PIE!

    This sounds good on paper but I'm not sure how easy it is to be introduced in to the game. I could name some other (slightly) complex changes to fix it, however I did something that was simple and has relations to other abilities in the game of similar sorts (grant: reflex/evasive).
  16. limone1981

    limone1981 I need me some PIE!

    Main problem of Snow Shroud is the cd.
    Grant reflexes and grant evasive have cd2, SnowShround has cd1 and gives both!
    -hey but the champion needs to be on a snow terrain to being able to receive it!!
    Snowspinner has Orb of the frostfall on him,as a skill! snow on demand in a faction that makes terrain control and modification one of the main and annoying problem.

    So for me or it goes to cd 2 and has a nora increase or, if you wanna save the ferren, change it in race realted: Snowspinner can give snowshroud only to ferren, Blizzard Ele only to elemental and Yeti Curate only to Yeti.

    Snow Shroud: target champion that shares a race with this champion, occupying snow gain reflexes 2 and evasive 2 for 2 turn. cd2
  17. Braxzee

    Braxzee I need me some PIE!

    If the problem are splits then it can only work on units with arctic. I do not see it a problem in splits either. When I use it or it is used against me precision pretty much wastes through it or loss of life. There has to be at some point needs to be a penalty for not having precision in your BG or to any type of counter in your BG to anything at all. If I build a BG and neglect to have shatter in it for another power rune, I should not be complaining about how strong equips are against me. The same goes for not having precision. Some factions may not have it, but they can do loss of life attacks or they can counter attack or instant drown the champ.

    But you are right the last argument was lazy. :(
  18. Braxzee

    Braxzee I need me some PIE!

    Snow Shroud is way to easy to counter for it to really be changed at all.

    Change terrain, Loss of Life, SPOT kill spell, AOE's, precision.
  19. Excalibur95

    Excalibur95 I need me some PIE!

    totally agree with op, especially about reflexes and evasive they are handed out to champs way too easy in this game and are incredibly strong. devs love ST but this time please nerf.
  20. limone1981

    limone1981 I need me some PIE!

    whatever is the counter cd1 has to go and put on cd2,in line with the other grant ability (because it is a grant ability)

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