Current ST power could do with some trimming.

I wasn't going to reply anymore to the thread, but this line in particular got to me. Who would use PHS if they had even the slightest chance of not hitting with the 3 hippos? So, in the best case scenario, you are 1v1 on a font and drop it - after you start using it, you pretty much know where the hippos will land and hit 3 times. It was really no big issue when I was playing FS.
The problem with Call is that for best case scenarios you need 3 champs to fuel the Yeti, thus double tapping. It's a much, much more situational deploy. On yeti bgs, though, it gets crazy - but I think that was the whole point.
Either way, I know as the meta shifts some things that werent problematic start being, and vice versa. I just find it funny because the rune has been around for as long as I can remember (I joined in 08), and it was never nerf called.
It is what it is, though.
As far as Snow Shroud, if all Grant: abilities are CD2, for consistency sake it's better that this one would be CD2 as well. My opinion.

 

For comparissons sake:

Snow Shroud - [AP: 2 CD: 1] - 5 Range - Cost: 5 - Grants Reflexes 2 and Evaisive 2 for 2 turns. Must be occupying Snow or Ice.

Grant: Evaisive - [AP: 1 CD: 2] - 5 Range - Cost: 3 - Grants Evaisive 2 for 2 turns.

Grant: Reflexes - [AP: 1 CD: 2] - 5 Range - Cost: 3 - Grants Reflexes 2 for 2 turns.


So Shroud costs +1 AP but has 1 less CD. It grants goth Reflexes and Evaisive thus bypassing the weakness of the other but also requires Snow or Ice. If a champion had both Grants it could achieve the same effect for 1 nora more but have a longer CD. The question lies in the drawback of requiring snow. Is that drawback worth one less nora and a CD of 1?

 

for an ability to be used more than once their same turn = cd0

to be used once per their turn = cd1

cd2 = to be used once per their turn, ability will become usable on opponents turn so the extra cooldown is useless.

cd3 = ability can be used every other of their turns. use one turn, skip next turn, use next turn.

i think this is correct?

so a suitable nerf for snow shroud would be to make it cd3.

 

If this was really the case, then everyone would sit champions next to each other to completely eradicate the chance of landing 3 hippos on a champ (which they should more often). Sometimes you just have to roll the RNG dice, because the skill is inherently RNG dependent.. Heck there could be a ferren snowspinner out in the open and theres still quite a very high chance you wont land all 3 attacks/charges. Ever had a champ in a font you wanted to kill with PHS? That fonts gonna block your triple charge often enough for it to matter, may aswell never take your chances with that logic. Even a relic anywhere inside the aoe can ruin your triple hit.

Also more to the fact, IDK why anyone would use CoT if they didn't know they were going to get an attack that killed (in the case of me using only 2 hippos which I do very often), or a CoT that had a double tap. The argument really goes both ways does it not? CoT is better in big teamfights and PHS is better in the side fonts and 1v1 skirmishes. If you want to win the 1v1 sidefont you have galeforce or blizzard cloak or the 40 nora font thing in your arsenal.

 

The drawback would be fine if there was any drawback, but I assume the devs designed the champ to have orb of frostfall. If they removed it that would be fine too.

Currently add 7 nora (+2 for shroud +5 for orb of frostfall) to many of the champs with the grant abilities so they are like snowspinner, and they will be quite insane. Just look at firk executor for example (only one off the top of the head that I actually play). The dude would be insane.

 

Other champs have the ability and on most of them it's a poor ability as they have either no snow production or bad snow production

 

st making snow or ice is easy, not a drawback.

 

I see. I've never really understood this logic where you have this flavourful drawback, however it's alleviated on the champions own kit. Sort of like vaporise magic eater on that hyaenid or unstoppable berserker on warogg. Idk that's just me. What's your proposed change in this case? Delete orb? I do admit I'd miss the rodent if it was completely erased from the meta I was just throwing ideas out as I don't think shes acceptable when looking at other similar champs in her current state. I by no means have a vendetta against her or CoT or anything.

Just like FS making water. Funnily enough undertow is not run in any meta FS deck and that thing is the epitome of OP spot removal. Terrain generation is harder than it seems.

 

easy but not free...

also depends on the deck, my yeti and flying deck makes no snow or ice

 

The draw back of having snow terrain - is 90% of the time you have to generate it somehow where it makes sense using an ok strategy. That could cost 25 nora all the way to 55 nora. Now having orb on her as well the draw back is keeping her in fairly close range or the champ you want to use it on in further range which cost AP. With shroud you have to use more ap either way if you do not want generate snow or ice terrain yourself. Then there is the idea can not be used at all due to terrain.

 

what about the trail snow spell / abilities among others, if not free next to free. i may not have played a game vs st that snow wasnt all over the place throughout the game.

 

ive also never seen snow shroud used less than every opponents turn, have you? if you think people dont use it every of their turns then you wont mind a cooldown increase then..

 

The real problem is not that snowspinner is too strong, but that other supports are quite poor because of the stupid calc - so you see her everywhere. She gives both ap and hp, both defence and offence, can even tank chipping damage, range 5 - and all that for a sane cost, one of very few champs post-revamp.
Now look at other supports which are melee/passive, can do 1 or 2 things max, spend their time as fuсkin furniture like dark apprentice, cost a ton like de summoner, have cooldowns butchered like seamstress, etc. Most of them really need individual cost adjustments and more abilities.

 

in the current st meta two units are run with orb of frost fall. doomie and snowspinner and personally I don't bother with orb on doomie if I don't have a unit with this ability on it

no st unit has trail that is run.

of all our spells the only one commonly run that produces ice or snow is frigid barrier.
Ice storm, lusara's, and arctic greeting makes some decks.

among relics you get a little ice off of containment unit, and grumble rock, or the odd person that runs orb of frostfall.

out of all of these the only one you can really rely on for permanent ice and snow is orb of frostfall ability everything else is significant nora investments or far to temporary.

 

you do have a point about the cost equation being a bit off for support units.

I think the cost of range maybe be too high on units with low damage.

for example if my unit had 2 damage should he pay the same price for 7 range as a unit with 22 damage?

 

It is also worth noting that if Orb was removed the Snowspinner would still have Snowstrike (Which costs less than Orb) as well as whatever replaces Orb, (Trail: Snow?) to still generate snow. The major difference would be that the Spinner would have to use AP to attack or move to create the snow which leaves less AP for abilities on U1.

 

orb of frostfall is all you need then after looking at the ability, you cant deny how easy it is to make your champs trail snow and practically free. there are other options too, thx for listing some, i dont play st myself.

 

Changing terrain doesn't remove the benefit of snow shroud. Loss of life is only widely available in fw. What the actual hell is a spot kill spell. Aoes I'll grant to an extent and yes precision counters it. But however precision is not something that's readaily available across the game not that that's a problem it just means it isn't some easy counter.

Personally snow shroud would be fine if the effect only remained if it still occupies snowith. Forces the support unit to be within 4 spaces and put itself at greater risk. Which is a more interesting design element than just a cd tap

 

The equation I use for my rune concepts is outdated and I know it has changed 1-2 times since it was used but the old one I have calculates cost of range and damage seperately.

 

But is it hard to do though. If no go for your life. But I assume it's not just a click from 1 --> 2 change.

Also you should be sleeping mr